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S12 Technical Areas => Engine Tech => ENGINE: Exotic Engine Swap Tech => Topic started by: Draconis on 03:46:07 AM / 01-Nov-06

Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 03:46:07 AM / 01-Nov-06
Okay, this is for a serious answer.

Randy and I are in the process of making the virtually impossible RB swap into a S12 something that everyone and anyone with a little bit of knowledge can do in their backyard.  Yes, it will be very simple.  The only issue will be wiring, but if you so choose, you could send it to us to be wired for you for a price of course.

Okay, I put a range of prices to see just what people think a swap should be done.  Normally, I know a swap is around $4k after parts and labor.  I am trying to make it so that one doesnt have to pay above $4k for their swap.

I am sorry for the delay about specific prices.  This just happened at the wrong time.  Dang SEMA.  ROFL.  Once I have an answer, I'll let you know.  The people I need to talk to have put just about everything on hold to attend it.

For the first batch of parts, would you guys be interested in a group buy.  The first batch to start off the business, Randy and I are thinking a group buy where the first 'x' amount of customers can receive our swap set up at a cheaper price than afterwards.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: NizmoFreak on 08:20:23 AM / 01-Nov-06
Im not even sure how much I would put down right now. I was considering an RB swap for a while but I was told It costed too much. For my drag car I will probably go for the VG or KA. If i go rb their is barley any aftermarket support in the states. Not sure yet though.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 02:04:08 PM / 01-Nov-06
Well, there is quite a bit of aftermarket for the RB itself.

As for the car itself, suspension and braking systems are on the list of things that Randy and I will be making raedy.  The only thing that is holding us back right now is funding to get the items to test them.

As for drag, the KA definately wont keep up and the VG unless it's turboed cannot keep up with the RB series.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Seraph1m on 10:34:00 PM / 03-Nov-06
wah. i want an RBS-12  looks like i have more reason than ever to do it now, too, seeing as how i may have cooked my clutch. (got stuck in a ditch, rocked it back and forth to get it unstuck, couldn't get out, so i drove half a kilometer backwards until i could get out)
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: falkhen on 03:51:37 PM / 05-Nov-06
Quote from: Seraph1m
wah. i want an RBS-12  looks like i have more reason than ever to do it now, too, seeing as how i may have cooked my clutch. (got stuck in a ditch, rocked it back and forth to get it unstuck, couldn't get out, so i drove half a kilometer backwards until i could get out)


how about JZGT-12    
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Nebuchernezzer on 04:43:48 PM / 05-Nov-06
I'm assuming the ammount you have listed in the poll is the ammount you would be paying for someone to do it all for you after you supply the front cut or whatever?  Or is this the price for a fitting kit?
Just curious.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: falkhen on 02:32:32 AM / 24-Nov-06
Quote from: Nebuchernezzer
I'm assuming the ammount you have listed in the poll is the ammount you would be paying for someone to do it all for you after you supply the front cut or whatever?  Or is this the price for a fitting kit?
Just curious.


yeah i think that is the point of this poll

i put $1,000 down and bought the motor $1,327 shipped (rb20det motor set)
so about 2,327 total and climbing
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: falkhen on 08:54:52 AM / 11-Jan-07
Quote from: falkhen
yeah i think that is the point of this poll

i put $1,000 down and bought the motor $1,318 shipped (rb20det motor set)
so about 2,327 total and climbing


sorry about the double Post

actual cost to day is $3,951.45 - $1,000 = $2,951.45
this does not include my exhuast or my intercooler plumbing. or any of the peice parts that i needed.

still need to be done.
plumbing, Exhuast, intercooler
speedo cable
rack and pionon is shot replacing that

Also note that fact that i have a Digital Dash allot of my junk don't work any more becuase of the Engine swap.
Speedo works and all idiot lites. and boost will work to soon as i hook up the hose.



so in total if you LOVE your S12 and are able or willing to sink 4g's or more... do it.
i don't know i think an S13 with a tuned Sr20det would be better and cheaper...
i can talk junk about my project...  
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 02:04:13 AM / 13-Jan-07
As for Falkhen's project, I just want to say that the things listed that needs to be done in his car are not necessarily what everyone will need to do.  The Speedo cable and the Rack were due to the condition his car was in, not the swap.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: falkhen on 06:58:19 PM / 14-Jan-07
Quote from: Draconis
As for Falkhen's project, I just want to say that the things listed that needs to be done in his car are not necessarily what everyone will need to do.  The Speedo cable and the Rack were due to the condition his car was in, not the swap.

this is true the rack was crap when I got the car. heh..  
the speedo cable came out of the car while it was being towed.

as for the Digital i don't really think its a loss in a second thought.
little research my help on this subject...
 but i will push this on another thread...

Title: Rb Swap
Post by: TE27Levin on 09:28:08 PM / 15-Mar-07
Rule of thumb. If I cant fit my penis into its intake ports it aint goin my car. RB20 FTL.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 03:02:44 AM / 16-Mar-07
Quote from: TE27Levin
Rule of thumb. If I cant fit my penis into its intake ports it aint goin my car. RB20 FTL.

Wow... then you sure dont know the amount of tinkering they do in Australia... They use RB20s all the time cause they are cheap and easy to build.  And they get tons of power out of them when built.  They are respectable engines, that's for sure.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: sicj on 01:08:36 AM / 30-Mar-07
I'm very interested in a group buy. There has to be an easier way than a 240 cross member with Mickinely (?) mounts, then you still have to worry abou the trans mount...

I hope this happens within two months!
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 03:13:22 AM / 30-Mar-07
No... the motor mounts are different from the S13 and S12... they still need to be somewhat modified... I've looked into this before.

Group buy would help heaps... right now we have been trying to fund this ourselves from our pockets... While at the same time I've been trying to get my car finished for the editor at Modified.   ARG!  LOL
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: mcfizzle on 03:28:29 AM / 30-Mar-07
Quote from: TE27Levin
Rule of thumb. If I cant fit my penis into its intake ports it aint goin my car. RB20 FTL.
 Uh... I know a 2L six cylinder engine isn't exactly the most appealing, but Colin's right. RB20 is still a very high potential engine. Probably among the higher I've ever seen crammed into an S12, except the mystery VG30DETT swap.

I'm still waffling around on what engine to put into my S12, Colin. I gotta get the CA20 to pass Oregon DEQ first. Good thing you gave me that extra can, the hole in the thing right now is HUGE. I keep flip-flopping around between KA-T, CA18DET and RB20. Mark me down as a maybe for the swap equipment... Job pending.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Nameless on 04:59:12 AM / 30-Mar-07
I dont know, i think the rb25 sounds like the better buy. Bigger and newer.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: ryan206 on 10:22:56 AM / 30-Mar-07
I called Axiom yesterday, and Randy told me $4000 in Labor.

UP Garage says $4000 for Parts + Labor, but they've never swaped an RB into an S12...

If I could get it cheaper, I would love it... I want an RB so bad, but I have to work my ass off for like 4-5 months and not spend a cent to get it..

I narrowed it down to RB20DET or CA18DET, but I'd much rather have the RB... It has a lot of potiental, and its always cool to say you got a Skyline Motor in your car...

If it could be installed for a grand, I would do that in a heartbeat, since thats the labor on most engines!
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: mcfizzle on 11:23:06 AM / 30-Mar-07
Colin is talking about getting the stuff so you could do it at home.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 12:22:56 PM / 30-Mar-07
Quote from: eminem_rh25
I called Axiom yesterday, and Randy told me $4000 in Labor.


You sure it's $4k in just labor?  That's not what we had talked about earlier  And if you go through Doug, it would not look like mine... Nor will it be given as much thorough attention as mine... Doug said some of the stuff Randy did on mine he would never had done.  Mainly, Doug doesnt fabricate like Randy... He tends to use what's already around an then put it together.  Give me a couple days and I'll see what I can come up with.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 01:07:46 PM / 30-Mar-07
I havent been over there yet... give me like 30 min... but from what I know, one of the biggest issues with doing the swap is that each subframe has to be made individually... Therefore it's a timely process.  We do not have copies or a blueprint of one that currently exists... hence:  http://club-s12.org/v3/index.php?topic=17160 (http://club-s12.org/v3/index.php?topic=17160)

If we had subframes already made up, I do know the cost would go down.  last time I talked about this, we had lots of ppl who wanted it, but not enough ppl who were willing to put down money for us to make them.  I did all the research on who to go to and shit.. Found someone would make us the subframes and tranny mounts with water cut technology... cleaner and keeps the strength in the material instead of possible warping or damaging it in other ways.

I'll talk to Randy and go over stuff again and list the requirements of what we would like to do to a swap.. Now someone could skimp out and not do everything we would advise and still have the car run... but it's some ground work.

So expect more tonight.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: mcfizzle on 01:29:31 PM / 30-Mar-07
Let us know what's up... You may be talking me back around into an RB swap.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: NeedCAforS13 on 02:10:32 PM / 30-Mar-07
rb20 = barf city.

sorry dude. you have a solid looking s12 with some cool shit done to it, but the rb20 kills it. hell, even the rb25 isn't worthwhile in my opinion. And I've driven a bad ass rb25 powered s13 making over 300whp. It was kinda, meh. Considering how much was spent...
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: TalkingGoats on 02:36:47 PM / 30-Mar-07
Dude... Are you only on this forum for burns?
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: NeedCAforS13 on 02:44:32 PM / 30-Mar-07
pretty much. I don't contribute at all, mr. 32 posts.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: mcfizzle on 02:46:13 PM / 30-Mar-07
Nah, he isn't. There are a lot of people out there who don't like the RB20. Two liters is extremely small for a six cylinder engine, so you've got to see where they're coming from on it. I think it could still be a worthwhile effort, but that's just me.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: NeedCAforS13 on 03:29:08 PM / 30-Mar-07
Quote from: DeathAndMajesty
Dude... Are you only on this forum for burns?

no, that would be unfair to burns. I'm here for allen too.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/nostalgia/2005/Burns_and_Allen.jpg)
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: TalkingGoats on 03:30:09 PM / 30-Mar-07
It has nothing to do with contribution, but seriously wtf is your problem?
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: NeedCAforS13 on 03:40:46 PM / 30-Mar-07
i don't like you. or 90% of the retards who own s12's. you're like the kids who were too cheap to buy an s13/s14, and therefore you're too poor to do anything cool to your s12. so you do stupid shit that doesn't really do much. like try and get 150hp out of a ca20. or put an rb20 in your car instead of something better. save up afew extra bucks, do something cool. its not hard or expensive to build a sweet car, if you keep it simple. he could have installed a baller ca18det for the price he spent on that rb20. and it wouldn't have sucked.

am I an asshole? yes. but am I correct? also yes. very few people tell me I'm wrong, but I do get alot of "you're an asshole" remarks because of the way I tell you you're wrong.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Premo on 08:00:41 PM / 30-Mar-07
Quote from: NeedCAforS13


no, that would be unfair to burns. I'm here for allen too.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/nostalgia/2005/Burns_and_Allen.jpg)


 

HA!

Title: Rb Swap
Post by: sam31183 on 12:55:25 PM / 31-Mar-07
colin wanted me to read this last night...and i did. And I didnt feel like posting on it last night....but I think I should kind of throw my 2 cents out there so you can give me change...you cheap commie bastards!


rb20 pros and cons

pros
it is a skyline engine...even if it is the lower level one so for a lot of people there is the wow factor when colin pops his hood.

it makes...ok power, but it should for being a straight 6 turbo. Yah, it is only 2 liters of displacement, and sure it takes up a lot more space then a sr, but i believe that the engine is cheaper then a sr because it doesn't have a royal fan boy base. Even tho I have noticed a lot of rb20s in the pacific northwest going into s13s.

cons:
size...this thing is massive. I love my 18det in my s12...so much room in there i can work on anything on it just about without having to worry about pulling the engine.

custom driveshaft, engine mounts, transmission mounts...this can be costly to do.

Weight. I dont know exactly how much the rb20 weighs, but it looks massive to me.




Now, I rode in draco on sunday...it got going pretty good, even tho it is pretty much a stock rb20, also colin didnt really get on it. He eased into the throttle and maybe got to 3/4th open throttle. After that I had indy take me for a ride in his 18det s12. He actually got on it and yes you can tell there is a power difference...but its a 1.8 4 cylinder vs a straight 6 2.0. One thing tho I really really liked about the 18det was the throttle response was amazing to me...and i love the sound. I can tell now that it is going to make a good autox engine.


So in conclusion; could colin of spent the same amount on a 18det and got the same power out of it that he is making in the rb20? or more? Its quite possible...but colin isnt racing his car, he is going to shows and trying to get sponsors/exposure for the s12...so the engine works for him. I think it really comes down to what you want to do with the car...i can see colin made the right decision for him and that indy and i made the right decision for us.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 02:04:35 AM / 02-Apr-07
double post.. see below
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Draconis on 02:04:35 AM / 02-Apr-07
Okay as of now...

Yes it is $4k for the following:

labor/materials for wiring, custom subframe, tranny mount, downpipe and intercooler piping.  Yes you can skip a some things like the intercooler and do it yourself and cut corners in other areas, but from working on my swap then Falkhen's, we figured out what looks better, performs better and is most pleasing... look at the pics in Falkhen's posts and compare to the ones when I did it.  Yes, it costs a bit more, but the end product is a lot cleaner and overall something well worth it.

All you have to do beyond that is buy the motorset, intercooler, exhaust pipe, timing belt and waterpump.  This will cost you around $2k.  Go to UPGarage and order your motorset thru Doug, have them drop it off at Axioim then do the swap over where Randy can get a hold of it.  There are obvious reasons as to why Doug's price is cheaper... but it also leaves out certain things... it's a good place to do a swap... but Doug himself said that Randy did things that he would never had done when he looked over my swap.

Other things that are requimended for future performance of a RB S12 from my experiences:
AFC Neo
Tokico/Koni Struts
Canuk Springs
Boost Gauge

In about a month my car will be in for several upgrades and we are hoping to be able to make copies of the following:

intercooler piping, downpipe, subframe and tranny mount

If we can get a group buy or we fund the copies/jigs of these pieces ourselves, then it will be a lot cheaper to do a RB swap rather than build each car separately.

I am looking to get a new intake plenium and turbo, so my downpipe and current intercooler piping will be used for the jigs needed and for sale for someone who wants to do a swap at a much cheaper price.

But as of now, each car has to be produced as a standalone... hence the length of time/labor it takes to do each car that comes in.

So if anyone is willing to lend us a subframe so we can make a copy, we will be able to mass produce these and we can work out an agreement with the donor of the subframe.

I also have a rb20 water pump, timing belt, boost gauge, A/F gauge and Water Temp. gauge that will be available by the end of the month.
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: Ozchuck on 03:39:58 AM / 02-Apr-07
lol needCAfors13... you're an arsehole...

I've also given RB25 S13's a punt, at 180KW, and then again at about 400HP... They're pretty sweet.
One post says the RB25 was meh, then the next says save the little more and get something cool.

I wanna know what you think is a little more, and what "cool" stuff you can get for it.

If you want a reliable drift engine that can handle a years worth of rev-limiter, then still drive you to work each day, you cant go past the RB20.
I myself have a CA18, I do prefer it, and when it pops I will get it rebuilt with forged pistons and big cams and stuff... But chances are it still wont make over 190KW's and last very long.

The RB20 however can be had for less than a CA rebuild alone, and makes more power, no matter what level o modifications you go with ( the ol' 2l has a habit of doing that.)
Title: Rb Swap
Post by: gerrybg on 09:25:52 PM / 04-Apr-07
(I have a sr20det by the way, so am impartial with the ca18det vs RB20det and think they are both good in their own right, though yes ca18det conversion is much easier than RB, so cheaper easier bang for the bucks). The RB20 is only 2 litres yes, but because its a 6 and only 2 litres this means shorter stroke = good revs and good torque, (heard of the 60's minis, which had the shortest strokes going so you could rev the shit out of them and punish them, they used to thrash a lot of the fat arse 'grunt' cars on tight tracks, because you could rev the shit out of them and they handled so well you could throw them around like nothing else).