Club-S12 Community => Announcements => Topic started by: Arro on 01:34:57 AM / 29-May-10

Title: Why Are Things The Way They Are?
Post by: Arro on 01:34:57 AM / 29-May-10
Sam had some reasonable comments in the last thread, and my response there really got to the heart of things. So I chose to move it here in its own thread.

What Sam said...

Quote from: sam31183
I said i was probably not going to post on this thread again...but a rum and coke later and i am a little buzzed so i am going to say a word or two.....keep in mind, i am not super buzzed..

I acknowledge you guys have final say over everything that goes on here...and for some things you have to make a judgement call...but, i dont agree with the judgement as the rule is vague....but, all i can do is say my piece and move on.

My relationship with colin has little to do with wether or not i agree with the decision that was made...i went maybe 2 or 3 years without talking to him...i wouldnt say we are close by any means. We know each other, we have done business with each other, and we are located some what near each other. If it wherent for the s12...i am pretty sure we would have never met, and i am pretty sure we would have never spoken...he is a good guy, but i doubt we would get along for too long in the outside world...or maybe we would...idk.

Someone posted the rules earlier, and it was vague about what the rules where regarding signatures like colin' was a judgement call to say it didnt fit what you guys wanted. You are clearly within your rights to do whatever you want with it....but imho, he had good s12 related material posted up in a quick, easy to see, organized manner...he didnt even have a pic in his sig. Like I said, you guys are within every right you have as admins/owners of the forum for just going and editing his signature without warning....but it is kind of a dick move to do it without warning....

Yah, the whole international vs north american thing has been argued just feels like with an auss12, uks12, s12france, s12 eastern europe, and s12sweden that this is the north american representation as this forum is mostly populated by north americans...maybe if you guys want to be truly international then an north american s12 site should be formed...sounds redundant though right?


you actually seem to make more sense (and you seem to be less unreasonable) when you've had a few. So I drank a few myself before I decided to respond.

Here's the deal man. You're thinking is fair enough in that last post. In all points. The onl y think I can say about the "north american" site is that there has never been a need. I suppose because the hosts have always been in North merica... first Dan (Member #1), then Tim and Travis, and now me.... that the host nation is also represented by the forum. If the domain name ever ended up in the ownership of someone else in another part of the world, I would fully expect them to become "Club-S12", and if it then become more centered around their side of the world, we would then have to create a North American chapter, yes.

But for now, it's North America who hosts the international site, so the site also handles their local community. And yet still represents the regionals as a whole. Make sense?

As far as the vague rules go... part of me wants to go through the rulesd with a fine-toothed comb, and really nail down a bunch of things. But part of me worries that if we made things less vague, we'd be called nazis, or who knows what else. It's like we can't ever really win. Either we are lax about enforcing rules, and the usual trolls and drama queens will litter and trash the forum into complete uselessness for info and sense of community, or we tighten down rules in details and then we're called nazis or too strict, anal, controlling bastards... or the third option is, we leave the rules a little loose in description in some places, and more detailed in others, but enforce them only here and there, and are called "vague" or accused of doing things as is personally convenient to whoever is moderating at the time.

At any given time, if we choose one of those three routes, someone will inevitably bitch that we should do one of the other two. Regardless of which of the three we choose.

SO... I ended up choosing that some of the rules are strict and enforced, while other rules are more vague and allow you guys to use common sense and courtesy.

In the case of the defined and enforced rules, we have strict enforcement of the "Wanted To Sell" formatting, to make it easier for browsing. We have strict on-topic enforcement in tech sections, to make the search for answers much easier. We have a very strict policy on placing things in the RIGHT section, although usually we just remind people and move it ourselves.. that way finding the answer in the right section is easier.

In the case of the loosely-defined and rarely-enforced rules, we allow everyone a chance to be a bit silly sometimes, or to make a mistake and get warned about it informally. Or we suggest (either in the thread, or privately) that a change in behavior or posting content should be made. The thread about excessive sig links is an example of that, as we aren't punishing anyone, but we're making a statement to everyone about what to do (or not to do), and why.

I struck a balance. It's the best we can do. And ultimately, nobody will ever be happy. Nor do I really care if everyone is. I'm not always the nicest guy about it, but I do have the good of the forum overall at heart. And sometimes that vision isn't about what's going on right now. Sometimes it's about what I think will be good or bad for the forum in the longer run. So while allowing something in the short term that some of you might think is harmless, might keep the peace... in the long run, it could have greater issues.

How do I come to those conclusions? How about because I've been here from the beginning, and seen what can happen. In another couple years, we'll be on our 10th anniversary. Maybe right now some of you find us "boring", but I assure you, we serve a greater purpose of information and awareness, and other than my sometimes brash personality, I do business here the same way that my predecessors did. I just squawk about it a little louder. But Dan, Tim, and Travis all felt the way I do, and often did what I do now. They were just a bit quieter about it.

Otherwise, nothing's really changed. Other than we're bigger, our information is better, and more people find answers and buy and sell S12 parts here than any other S12 forum in the world, to the best of my observations. And even if my observations aren't accurate (although I think them to be so), we're still a major element in the S12 world.

Hope that gives a better idea on how I see things and this forum. And for that matter, why I started this thread in the first place.
Title: Why Are Things The Way They Are?
Post by: sam31183 on 01:49:15 AM / 29-May-10
I had typed up this loooooooong response...but when i went to post the thread got locked....I am glad my voice was heard though...

btw, my first post i was trying to get my point across in a comical way, i wasnt "trying" to be unreasonable, but i could see how it came off that way.

Tim invited me to this forum from nwn 5 years ago, and i love this site. I wouldnt have the car I have now without clubs12, and it wouldnt be where it is now without this site, my brother, and me..its been a combined effort. But because i feel involved with the whole s12 community in a certain way I felt like I should voice my thoughts on what was going on...just so they could be heard...
Title: Why Are Things The Way They Are?
Post by: Arro on 01:54:37 AM / 29-May-10
I understand... and honestly, as long as it isn't done with a troll-tone, or some personal sadistic need to feel self-important, I welcome everyone's opinions. the problem is that some people get unnecessarily rude and detract from any real discussion. I admit, I can be rude, but usually I don't start it that way. I react quite positively to reasonable discussion on just about any facet of operations here. I admit tho, I react really piss-poor to those who, to me, are obviously just trying to cause trouble, or being very unfair in a situation. I just dislike any injustice, big or small, and I'm unwilling to play politics or try to be "diplomatic" just to save my own hide reputationally. So I just put all the cards on the table as they say. You should see me on the road when someone runs a red turn signal. Or when someone almost drives over the little old lady crossing the street. I'm a real mean bastard when I think someone's way outta line. It's just who I am.

On the other hand, I don't hold grudges. Never have, never will.

Anyways, I appreciate your comments in the post I quoted.
Title: Why Are Things The Way They Are?
Post by: CamInHead on 12:53:39 PM / 29-May-10
Personally I don't really see the need for an international site if there's genuine comradary between the various domestic sites.

Oh a quick footnote, I must have missed some of the various friction that'sbeen touched on, or just totally not paying attention haha. I had no idea there had been issues with the UK site that had effected the non-uk peeps.
Title: Why Are Things The Way They Are?
Post by: Arro on 01:28:25 PM / 29-May-10
yeah that UK situation was long ago, in the beginning years.

The camraderie that you speak of has never been solid... some years, it's good. Other years, it falters. Rightnow, to be perfectly honest, it seems like most of the regionals are doing their own thing, and not interested in making the effort to reach out to other regions. No big deal, like I said, it's happened before, and then it gets better. So at least one community needs to stay solid, and be available to everyone. Just happens to be us. Could have been the aussies, but we've been here the longest. Just how it is I suppose.
Title: Why Are Things The Way They Are?
Post by: Draconis on 01:51:31 PM / 29-May-10
I see it as this.  There doesnt necessarily need to be one solid one over another one.  I understand that was not said, but when read, it can be implied as such.  It seems that in the past year and such, most do seem solid and without issue of faltering for anything long term.  It doesnt matter who's been around the longest or who has the most amount of members.  Yes, they coincide and does have some effect, but in the long run, it may bring friction by the impression that one is 'greater' than another.  I do have to say, to state that one site needs to stay available to everyone... well each site except maybe the UK site at the moment, is available to everyone.  The websites arent really going anywhere the last I knew.  Not to mention, it seems that internationals are more active on our site than us Yanks are on the sister sites.  Yes, there can be several reasons for this, but it only points out patterns and trends with the regulars of each sub-group.

And yes, everything is cyclical.  One thing to remember, is that most of the sister sites are in the northern hemisphere.  It is summer.  There will be a drop in activity in general and when crossing 'borders'.  People are starting to get active in their personal life, the automotive season, or what have you.  In winter or let's say Aus at the moment with their winter, activity will pick up slightly while we are out and about up here.

At the moment, I dont see why we need to be concerned with the actions of others and the cycles of international interest.  As with everything, nothing is solid as a constant.  Life is a parabola.

*edited due to grammar
Title: Why Are Things The Way They Are?
Post by: Arro on 02:13:54 PM / 29-May-10
there's no harm in acknowledging that we're the longest running, if that's what you mean by "more established". Doesn't diminish the importance of regional sites.