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S12 Technical Areas => Handling Tech => Topic started by: adroitcaptor on 11:08:06 AM / 25-Nov-13

Title: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: adroitcaptor on 11:08:06 AM / 25-Nov-13
Hate to ask for a spoon feed; but I am confused about a post CamInHead made ( http://club-s12.org/retro4/index.php?topic=18617.msg366548#msg366548 ). I have been researching suspension upgrades for a couple months for my 87S12se. I am trying to finish buying parts for S13 coilover conversion, but stuck on a couple things.

FWIW: I have a complete S13 front suspension including steering rack (les sway bar), and a complete rear suspension. I also have S13 brakes and rotors for all corners, S14 front knuckles, and S14 5lug hubs.

1) S14 and S13 tie rod ends are the same at the ball joint but the thread sizing is different (into the inner) - correct?
2) If I run S13 LCAs with S14 knuckles, how much wider will my track be?
3) Comparatively, if I use the S13 front cross-member and LCAs with S14 knuckles, how much wider will my track be?

Thanks in advance for any help. Trying to get the parts ordered / decide which coilovers to buy while I clean and repaint everything else.
-dan
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: sideways_s12 on 06:57:08 PM / 25-Nov-13
pm iggyeguana  he will know exactly what you need....
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: I_heart_VVL on 08:31:29 PM / 25-Nov-13
1) Correct - S13 rod ends are M12 x 1.25 while S14 rod ends are M14 x 1.5

2) Track width is based on your lower control arm regardless of what knuckle you use, S13 is roughly 10mm wider than stock.

3) S13 crossmember won't change your track width; can someone confirm?
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: IggyEGuana on 02:18:31 AM / 26-Nov-13
No clue about S14 inner or outer rods, I never messed with them

The S13 LCAs are 10mm longer PER SIDE than S12, S14 LCAs are 20mm longer than S12. Swith to S13 for an aggressive street car with a little camber. Switch to S14 for a balls out track car with lots of camber. I run S14s, I have just under -5 degrees camber, My camber plates are maxed out to positive.

no clue about changing subframes. read somewhere that they were wider. Idk if it even bolts up without drilling stuff. not even worth it.

My exact setup:

front
S12 Subframe
S12 de-powered steering rack (extra seals discarded and dampener welded up, steering shaft dampener also welded up)
S13 coilovers with camber plates
S13 spindles/hubs
S13 balljoints
S13 inner tie rods (uncut, angle spacers added)
aftermarket Heim-jointed and bumpsteer spaced S13 outer tie rods (stock S13 ones will work too)
S13 brakes (Q45 or J30 are better and usually easy to find in junkyards)
S14 tension rod brackets
S14 LCAs (boxed)
Energy Suspension poly LCA bushings
aftermarket S13/S14 adjustable tension rods

rear
Silhouette Autosports adjustable rear trailing arms
Eibach linear pullbar springs (5x6", ~600lbs/in)
Adjustable spring perches
Foxbody Mustang KYB Gas-A-Just shocks (going to switch to E-150 shocks)
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: adroitcaptor on 03:54:09 AM / 26-Nov-13
You guys are way awesome!  So many communities just cut down people. This site seems really oriented toward helping people... good on all of you!

I will run: S13 LCAs, s13 t/c rods, s13 rack,  s13 or s14 (matched) inner outer tie rods, s14 knuckles and hubs (6 setsof wheels 5x4.5), s13 coilovers (leaning toward stance), new bushings (not sure brand, and new ball joints (not sure brand).
Brakes I am thinking Z32 but it depends on how much I have left over. I have heard of an Altima swap but have not researched this issue enough. Maybe I will throw my SE-R calipers/rotors on just for giggles and the cat...
The only reason I was asking about the front subrame is ease of rack and bushing swap.

1) any opinions on ball joint brands (I did not research this yet)
2) opinions on aftermarket inner/outer tie rods?

As always - TYSVM!
-dan
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: IggyEGuana on 05:33:34 AM / 26-Nov-13
get adjustable tension rods so you can get a good alignment afterwards. Caster is a pull angle and having your car pull to the left or right because of something you cant adjust would suck. Also if you drift or plan to caster is a way to tune how your steering acts.

the inner and outer tie rods you use will depend on subframe/rack/LCA choice. the wider your front track and narrower your rack, the longer your tie rods have to be. I have the longest LCAs with the narrowest subframe (maybe) and idk how the width of my S12 rack compares to the other racks. I run uncut S13 inner and outer tie rods. If I switched to S13 LCAs then I would need to cut down my inner tie rods and either cut down the outers or run 95 ford escort ones (yes 90s ford escort fits on s13 inners and fits S13 knuckles)

The coilovers will somewhat determine what knuckles you run or vise-versa. I think S14 knuckle to strut bolts are a larger diameter than S13. Or maybe its the other way around. Either way. if theyre mismatched you either drill the holes out bigger or buy sleeves to make them smaller. I chose to keep it simple and just run the cheaper/easier to find S13 parts. btw you can install the 5 lug S14 hubs onto S13 spindles.

All of my ball joints and tie rod ends on all my cars are the sealed "non-serviceable" type. That means theres no zerk fitting (the metal nipple where the grease goes in). Just trust me on this one. If you go to autozone or whatever and ask for S13 balljoints just open the box up real quick before paying. If they give you the grease fitting kind just hand it back and ask them to pull a different one off the shelf. You might have to explain why and check all the S13 ball joints they have cuz the typical parts store employee is an idiot.

z32 brakes are super overkill unless its a serious road race car with other braking mods to support it or if you really just wanna be super cool and show off. my stock s13 brakes with junky old pads (literally the pads that were on the brakes in the junkyard) are more than capable of locking up my front wheels if i push the pedal too hard. Brake fade is not a issue in drifting but weight is and small ass S13 brakes are lighter than even aluminum Z32s because of those big heavy rotors. Next year I'll have more weight in the front of the car so maybe bigger brakes will be needed but unless youre sticking 500 pounds of motor in your car I wouldnt worry about it.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: rednucleus on 11:28:42 AM / 26-Nov-13
Iggy, why do you prefer the sealed ball joints vs those you regularly grease?
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: IggyEGuana on 11:01:45 PM / 26-Nov-13
the sealed are smaller and higher quality and of course sealed. they wont leak or need a second thought for 5-10 years. the grease fitting type will leak and are often not made as well. MOOG is an example and the quality sucks. I know most of the consumer market thinks its good but trust me its junk. Maybe theyre fine for a ford or chevy but thats about it. I bought 1 S13 ball joint at Autozone when I had to repair my suspension after a wreck. I didnt check it when i bought it and when i went to put it on it was this big bulky junky made thing with a crappy zerk fitting. I took that shit straight back and explained the difference. The guy thought it was the wrong part in the box but it wasnt. it was just a different manufacture of the same application ball joint. He pulled another one off the shelf and it was exactly like the first two i bought. Sealed unit that looks exactly like oem and even says made in japan right on it. Thats a duralast branded ball joint btw. The only thing autozone about it was the box.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: rednucleus on 11:32:42 PM / 26-Nov-13
lol I have one sealed and one with a zerk. I'll let you know which one dies first - probably me before the parts as it's just daily driving stress they are exposed to!
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: IggyEGuana on 12:20:44 AM / 27-Nov-13
daily driving is the hardest on parts. miles and miles of regular peoples activities in all types of weather and conditions good and bad. The parts on my S12 barely get used in comparison
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: spiderwebfx on 02:05:40 AM / 27-Nov-13
btw you can install the 5 lug S14 hubs onto S13 spindles.

Is this definite?  I've been on the New Zealand Silvia forum for over five years, and this is the first time I've come across this.  As far as I was aware, they weren't compatible with each other at all, hence the reason for Ichiba (or whoever it is) producing the S13 only 5-lug conversion hubs.


Also, if you are using the S14 hub carrier, you will need an S14 balljoint put into the S13 lower control arm.

In regards to strut mounts and hub carriers.  S13 is 12mm, and S14 is 14mm.  You run sleeves to put S14 coilovers with S14 hub carrier, or drill the coilover mounts out.
S13/S14 front coilover are generally identical except for the diameter of those mounting holes.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: adroitcaptor on 05:45:30 AM / 27-Nov-13
Response(s) to IggyEGuana:
1) Roger on adjust-ability. (plz see below question)

2) I will measure the two racks and get back to you.

3) a. I need to stick with S13 coilovers, I can shim the mounting bracket holes if needed.
b. My research says S13 and S14 knuckles have different spindle sizes.
c. I will have to decide which ones later. For now I picked up some S13 lowering springs with KYB shocks.

4) Still researching ball joint options. I have no desire to get non-sealed. TBH, things like wheel bearings, ball joints, etc are on my PMCS list. Too many people let these fail under the assumption they are a 'life of the car' item... Leaning toward

5) Might stick stock S13 brakes or now with more aggressive pads. Looking into maxima brakes (14.7lb rotor vs 10.1 but cheaper and plenty of stopping for mtn driving)


Qestions:
1) I am worried about the front LCAs being 10mm longer. I am going to be forced to go with ZG flares at this point. Plus my fronts will poke super hard and my rears will look battle ship'd. /sigh Any ideas? (16x9 R32 GT-R wheels +30) Guess I can stick with the stock arms?

2) Thinking about either ISIS, Circuit Sports, or Tien for inner/outer tie rods and adjustable T/C rods. Opinions? (All seemed to get decent reviews for these two pieces... I like the cheaper option; surprise!)

3) With S13 LCAs I need an S13 swaybar correct?


Thx as always!
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: IggyEGuana on 07:14:49 PM / 27-Nov-13
nah the fitment will be fine. the arm is 10mm longer but it doesnt push the top of the wheel 10mm out. It will push it out a little but not that much. the real change is in camber.

I have standard replacement S13 inners. Dont remember the brand. I found them online from rockauto.com I think. The outers are cheap ebay heim ends. they have extra length adjustment and correct for bump steer a little. Never failed me. I bought the same pair again when i had to fix wreck damage. "Baller" brands are sometimes worth the expense but usually theyre not.

I dont remember exactly but I think the swaybar wont mount correctly to the frame rails/tension rod brackets after switching to S14 tension rod brackets. I think some custom mounts wouldve solve the problem but I just dont use a swaybar instead. Stiff coilovers pretty much eliminate body roll anyways.

btw if youre gonna use S13 LCAs you need to run S13 inners and escort outers. OR you can run S12 inners and A1 outers. theyre aftermarket ones made specifically for doing that. Cost goes up tho
Post Merge
Is this definite?  I've been on the New Zealand Silvia forum for over five years, and this is the first time I've come across this.  As far as I was aware, they weren't compatible with each other at all, hence the reason for Ichiba (or whoever it is) producing the S13 only 5-lug conversion hubs.

I thought so but I've never done it so I mustve heard wrong. My mistake.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: D-sport S12 on 11:29:43 PM / 27-Nov-13
^
I installed a s13 swaybar when I did my conversion and it fit fine. Never tried a s12 swaybar though
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: spiderwebfx on 11:35:30 PM / 27-Nov-13
R32 GTR wheels are only 16x8. They will fit with S13 lcas without flares as long as you have a slotted strut to hub mount, (common on a lot of decent coilovers) and camber adjustable top hats.  You will have about -2deg camber.  I'm running s13 lcas with 16x8.5 wheels and no flares.

I also used a S13 swaybar on mine.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: pakii-afa on 06:39:54 PM / 28-Nov-13
my setup is
s12 lca
s13 ball joint welded onto lca
s13 hub/spindle/rotor/caliper/pads
s12 inner/outer tie rod.
isis coilover at full height (2 inch lower than stock s12 height.)
stock s12 brake lines. i just filed down the little nubs on the s13 caliper and its good enough for now.

i did this to be able to keep the same track to run a wider dish on the rim.
my future plan is to acquire r31 lcas as they are 10mm shorter than s12 lca (to have more camber adjustment without going crazy), s13 tension rods and s14 tension rod brackets.

*i had a bad experience installing s13 ball joints on s12 arms. they were loose, and i didnt feel safe so i had them welded.*
*the tie rods do work but it doesnt fit like it should, so i drilled the hole on the knuckle a bit bigger to get it to fit lower. and im happy with it.*
*and i did notice that even with the s12 lca my track is now wider. maybe about 10mm, it could be that the s13 hub alone has done this (stock s12 - tire tucked under fender, s13 hub - tire is now flush with the outside of the fender) or it could just be the lower ride height)*

just food for thought.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: adroitcaptor on 03:58:36 AM / 29-Nov-13
Roger on the 16x8; was my typo...
Thx for the info guys! As silly as it may be, I was real worried this was not going to pan out.
Eventually I want to extend the S13 LCAs but that is way down the road.
Here are some pics.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj97/adroitcaptor/Mobile%20Uploads/20131110_113553-1.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj97/adroitcaptor/Mobile%20Uploads/20131116_175022.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj97/adroitcaptor/Mobile%20Uploads/20131116_175050.jpg)
Hopefully that shows. Forums on my phone are kind of a pain.

I will update with measurements when I get time. Maybe a few more photos and alignment specs if anyone cares. (I want to do a before and after alignment.)
-dan
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: spiderwebfx on 12:27:07 PM / 29-Nov-13
Which LCA's did you end up going with?

It looks like it has positive camber, or did you not move it since lowering it off the jack?


GTR wheels look awesome too. 
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: adroitcaptor on 04:01:15 PM / 29-Nov-13
That is my 'before' pic. Everything stock as far as I know.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: I_heart_VVL on 09:48:44 PM / 29-Nov-13
You guys are way awesome!  So many communities just cut down people. This site seems really oriented toward helping people... good on all of you!

I will run: S13 LCAs, s13 t/c rods, s13 rack,  s13 or s14 (matched) inner outer tie rods, s14 knuckles and hubs (6 setsof wheels 5x4.5), s13 coilovers (leaning toward stance), new bushings (not sure brand, and new ball joints (not sure brand).
Brakes I am thinking Z32 but it depends on how much I have left over. I have heard of an Altima swap but have not researched this issue enough. Maybe I will throw my SE-R calipers/rotors on just for giggles and the cat...
The only reason I was asking about the front subrame is ease of rack and bushing swap.

1) any opinions on ball joint brands (I did not research this yet)
2) opinions on aftermarket inner/outer tie rods?

As always - TYSVM!
-dan

Since nobody has explicitly mentioned it, you NEED S14 t/c rod brackets and oval one of the holes out to fit. S13 tension rods a different design.


As for the brakes, you really dont need Z32 front brakes on a small car like this, not the mention brake balance will be thrown off with huge front brakes and stock tiny rears. Q45 front calipers, Z31 rear vented discs, and a Z32 brake master cylinder gives you the best bang for your buck IMO.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: adroitcaptor on 12:55:13 AM / 17-Dec-13
I was under the impression that the s13 and s14 t/c rods were the same except for the length.  My plan was to use the existing brackets on the car and just modify them. If I am not mistaken, all I need it to cut the middle out, strengthen the sides, and get a shank bolt to fit.

I ran out of money for thev moment but if I did brakes, it would be all 4 corners.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: spiderwebfx on 01:55:18 PM / 17-Dec-13
S13 and S14/S15 traction control rods are identical in design, just slightly different length.  For memory, S13 is about 10mm shorter to cater for the shorter lower control arms.

Using the S14 bracket would be a shit ton easier than using and modifying the factory S12 ones.  You also know they're going to be strong enough because that's how they were designed to work.

My S12 has S14 brackets and S13 adjustable traction rods. 
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: I_heart_VVL on 11:46:41 AM / 21-Dec-13
word^

just get s14 ones, you can get them for like $20 if you shop around. everything goes on so smooth with them.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: S12Prelude on 06:47:48 PM / 14-Jan-14
Has ANYONE used adjustable s13 LCA's and tie rods on their s12? Are there any issues with doing this vs. OEM?
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: Jay on 06:53:53 PM / 14-Jan-14
LCA's, yes. When using the the S14 tension rod bracket and tension rod. Used when you want MORE camber, as the S13 LCA is longer than the S12 one. And the S14 one is even longer than the S13.

And, nope. The tie rods are WWWWAAAAAYYY off. Not even in the ballpark for OEM suspension.

If you're trying to use S13 adjustable LCA's on a stock suspension, nobody has tread there as it's of no benefit. Can still find plenty of S12 LCA's around. They might even run into an issue with the steering knuckle. Doubtful, but maybe.
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: D-sport S12 on 12:09:14 PM / 15-Jan-14
Tie rods are not way off with a rack spacer, dont know about without one
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: S12Prelude on 02:03:15 PM / 15-Jan-14
I don't mean for use on oem s12 suspension. I have full s13 conversion and s14 tc brackets. Wanted some beefier tie rods rather than oem s13 inners

Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: D-sport S12 on 03:18:04 PM / 15-Jan-14
Got the same setup as you, mine fit pretty good, with room for some adjustment
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: S12Prelude on 08:32:03 AM / 16-Jan-14
What tie rods are you using? I was looking into teins
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: D-sport S12 on 07:06:10 PM / 16-Jan-14
I just have factory s13 inner and outers. Teins are pretty good, a friend had them on his 180. I was also looking at dmax riddles, they look to be pretty good for the price
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: slcmischiefone on 08:07:54 PM / 25-Nov-15
I hope this topic is still live. if not i'll post a new thread. I am currently buying parts to do this swap, and am having to order parts, rather than see and hold them to compare. the problem is, the S14 tension rod brackets have an early and late designation. i don't see anywhere in this thread where the difference is specified. anyone seen this or have an answer?
Title: Re: S12 to S13/S14 conversion questions
Post by: D-sport S12 on 11:45:43 PM / 25-Nov-15
Never heard of the sort myself