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S12 Technical Areas => Engine Tech => ENGINE: Exotic Engine Swap Tech => Topic started by: iB6uB9 on 11:32:42 PM / 25-Jul-04

Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 11:32:42 PM / 25-Jul-04
i was wondering if anyone has heard/know/seen anyone who has done this conversion, i am in the finishing stages of the conversion and was curious how other peoples efforts have gone.
Title: RB20det
Post by: henge on 12:29:45 AM / 26-Jul-04
as far as i know you\'d be the first (atleast in Club-S12) to have a RB series engine in a S12.. so far the swaps i\'ve heard of are KA24DE, CA18DET, SR20DET, CA20ET (custom engine by Alex), and finally, my favorite, VG30DETT
 
i\'d love to see some pics of the progress you\'ve made!
 
please keep us posted
Title: RB20det
Post by: YellowPreludeR on 12:46:58 AM / 26-Jul-04
someday the beginning letters of my engine will be RB and the ending letters and numbers will be 26DETT.  :P  :lick:  I too wanna see pictures.
Title: RB20det
Post by: Nebuchernezzer on 01:14:26 AM / 26-Jul-04
Should fit pretty well, prolly have to run thermos instead of engine fan though.  What i\'d like to see is a 1JZGTE in a gazu, i considered using a spare stripped shell with a 1J as a drag car but we ended up putting a CA18DET in it.
Go the RB20, cheap power :)
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 01:16:38 AM / 26-Jul-04
i have some pics but they are much too large have to resize them

i have also added JIC coilovers, r32gts brakes, powersteering, kept a/c, hybrid fmic etc etc
Title: RB20det
Post by: RPSport-John on 02:30:38 AM / 26-Jul-04
what did you use for the mounts, we used the mckinney kit to fit the rb25 into the s12. have fun with the rb20, it\'s only a little nose heavy.

oh yeah, what did you do in the back with the jic\'s?

John
[url]www.rpsport.net[/a]
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 04:02:45 AM / 26-Jul-04
nose heavy makes it better for drift, that is the purpose of it
havnt done anything with the rear suspension yet
what do u suggest, also need LSD urgently
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 07:52:35 PM / 26-Jul-04
as for the mounts i am using a crossmemeber that we refabricated, no use of mckinney kits etc
Title: RB20det
Post by: RPSport-John on 12:26:55 PM / 27-Jul-04
shoot me some pics, if at all possible. We\'ve worked with 3 different configureations mounting the engine, id like to get a look at what you did.  You did nothing to mount the JIC\'s in the rear?

Please send pics to

[a href=\'mailto:John@rpsport.net\']John@rpsport.net[/a]

Thanks
John
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 11:06:12 PM / 27-Jul-04
what i meant is that i havnt done anything with the rears yet, still looking at my options, just have the JIC at the front, any suggestions for the rear.
where would the best place to find some type of LSD for my 85 IRS hatch
ps. what other mounting configurations have you used.
Title: RB20det
Post by: Joel07 on 07:43:33 AM / 29-Jul-04
Nismo sells LSD\'s, but I think if you haven\'t already, you might want to swap in the R200 diff...
Title: RB20det
Post by: RPSport-John on 01:15:12 PM / 31-Jul-04
probably the 180sx lsd would be best, based on the weight of the vehicle plus the rb20 (300hp top) the higher gearing in the dif is gonna do alot for you. Plus the it is a very beefy lsd.  Use a z31 mounting plate on the 180sx dif to mount it, adn get the 180sx halfshafts, and s12 halfshafts fabbed together at a driveshaft shop.


John
Title: RB20det
Post by: Mr XXX on 01:25:48 AM / 07-Aug-04
Hey Guys, I am looking at this conversion. There are a number of S13s in New Zealand running RB\'s and they run really well in our Drift series. As far as I know there is another RB s12 in NZ. I would be very very intrested in pics, and anything you can across as being really tuff to work out. iB6uB9, i see you are running power steering. Was your s12 fitted with power steering from factory, or have you custom mounted this set up? I would be keen to get info on this as well. Did either of you moddify the firewall? as far as I can tell it should fit without. someone told me that they heard of someone running A Toyota AW-11 radiator, as these are not very tall, and fit in the front of the radiator surrond....

Any pictures of mounts or anything at all will be very very helpful. Thanks please send to [a href=\'mailto:ainsworth@xtra.co.nz\']ainsworth@xtra.co.nz[/a]

RB\'s have got to be the most cheapest versitile engine ever. AS for the diff, My s12 had a solid axel type diff, so I am currently setting up a toyota Hilux LSD diff, and also converting it Disc brake. Should be good.

Allan
Title: RB20det
Post by: rob101 on 04:56:42 AM / 07-Aug-04
a front heavy car is good for drifting?....... i am sorry but that doesn\'t make sense wouldn\'t the car understeer more? instead of being more neutral? don\'t get me wrong i am not having a go at you or anything i was just wondering how that could help drifting?
Title: RB20det
Post by: Mr XXX on 06:36:40 AM / 07-Aug-04
Well, I guess the theory is if there is more weight at the front, then there is less weight in the rear, making traction less. Alothough understeer will most likly be a factor, with a good suspention set up you should be able to work around it pretty easy. Its a bit like compering a S13 and S14. The 14 is a lot easier to loss traction than the s13. The s13 is prone to understeer from what I have read and seen.

Mr XXX
Title: RB20det
Post by: Mr XXX on 06:39:22 AM / 07-Aug-04
Oh, also guys, some one told me that to do the s13 to RB swap, a cerifro cross member is used, which bolts straight in. So on the theory, doe sanyone know the diffrence between  S13 and S12 cross member geography?
Title: RB20det
Post by: Jsvob03 on 09:15:56 PM / 07-Aug-04
Quote
as far as i know you\'d be the first (atleast in Club-S12) to have a RB series engine in a S12.. so far the swaps i\'ve heard of are KA24DE, CA18DET, SR20DET, CA20ET (custom engine by Alex), and finally, my favorite, VG30DETT


I\'ll just make my own Engine....VQ33DERTTi .... should push a few HP..but...i dont see it as possible, cause it would prob cost upwards of $15k...at that rate..just get an RB series, and turn the Turbo WAYYYYYY up! lol..just a thought
Title: RB20det
Post by: Mr.200 on 10:48:17 AM / 11-Aug-04
to \"drift\" all 4 tires have to be sliding. Anything else is a power slide.

You basically want to understeer to keep the front end of the car pointing towards the exit of the turn through the entire movement.

Remember, the whole \"idea\" of drifting is to be able to slide a corner at a faster rate than you could apex the turn. If you come into a turn, slow down to take it, then just light up the tires under power on the exit - this is not a drift. To take a corner faster than the car can apex, you have to slide the front. With the front tires gripping, you\'re taking the wrong approach. Doing it this way, you have a pivot point. Applying power will make you rotate on that point - ie oversteer. This is where moderation comes into play. If you have severe understeer, the car will plow straight, which is bad. Moderate understeer, the car will half turn, then start to slip. You then use oversteer to keep the back end pushing you in the direction you want to go. When the understeer goes away, if you\'ve done everything right, the car will end up pointing towards the exit, and you power out. If you\'re trying to do it by just jerking the wheel to keep the front end where you want it, you\'ll invite counter rotation. Basically if you keep pushing the car in this state, you\'ll oversteer into a complete 360. You have to keep the momentum, or inertia in a constant arc. By going back and forth to correct, you\'re unloading and loading opposite tires on the back end.

When I say \"understeer first, then power\" I don\'t mean it\'s a 2 step process. You don\'t get the car to plow, then apply power. It\'s a smooth transition.

You angle the car properly coming in on the approach. As it starts to understeer and the front end loses its grip, you have to steer with the throttle.

It\'s hard to explain in words. Play with a Hot Wheels car, you might get an idea there.
Title: RB20det
Post by: Joel07 on 03:14:47 PM / 11-Aug-04
:burnout:

Alright, I think I get it now...  8)

Sometimes it just takes me a while to understand stuff...   :bomb:
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 07:18:46 PM / 11-Aug-04
i aggree with mr.200, regardless of what may be popular belief i have driven s13\'s with their original engines and now with rb\'s and i find that the car is much better to drift with the extra weight up the front end
Title: RB20det
Post by: rob101 on 09:08:19 PM / 11-Aug-04
hmmmm have you ever heard of neutral steer its when the front and the back have the same slip angle thus if they have the same cornering stiffness they will both break loose at the same time. I do know that drifting is not just power oversteer. A car which has a understeer posture (putting Centre of mass further forward will increase this) will tend to want to yaw back to the direction it is travelling when it is sliding perhaps this is good for drifting i am not sure. however i was under the idea that a neutral steer car is desired for drifting as it does not tend to yaw in either direction. putting more weight forward won\'t result in a less Neutral Sterring car generally. once again i am not saying this is gospel but i have been doing alot of reading on the subject (have thesis on modelling suspension for a formula SAE car) and have been pondering  :wall:  about these problems in a physical sense.
Title: RB20det
Post by: Mr.200 on 10:35:54 AM / 12-Aug-04
I think the problem with a neutral car is just that ... it\'s neutral. It really comes down to driver preference I guess.

It\'s kind of like NASCAR in a way. NASCAR cars are set up to only turn left. The entire car is actually balanced that way. I\'ve got some pretty funny pictures of C&D trying to manhandle a Winston Cup car through a slalom.

Getting a car into a neutral slide isn\'t easy, especially at a high rate of speed. It takes an experienced driver in a car he\'s familiar with to do it properly. If your car has a natural tendency to initiate drifts, you can get some really visually impressive drifts.  

The thing is, drifting is a demonstration sport. What makes a car desireable for road holding and handling won\'t help you drift.

A neutral car would me a much better all around performer. You wouldn\'t want to race a car that has been set up for drifting on a street track.
Title: RB20det
Post by: RPSport-John on 02:08:10 PM / 13-Aug-04
..... later...

john
Title: RB20det
Post by: S12PSI on 07:45:56 PM / 18-Aug-04
ok i\'m not going to get involved in the drifting debate as this is not the thread for it.

I have heard the rb20det has definately been done in australia, u just have to move the radiator. I would be very keen to see some pics plz to

[a href=\'mailto:marty_308@hotmail.com\']marty_308@hotmail.com[/a]

thanks, i have one ca18det S12 Hatch, thinking of getting an FJ20et Notchback, unless rb20det seems like a better option (probably easier to find and cheaper in the long run for modifications)

This thread had some good info, before the drift arguement started. catchas
Title: RB20det
Post by: teknos8n on 09:05:20 AM / 22-Aug-04
I am in australia and would like to know if anyone could send me some info and some pics of the s12 in australia that has had the rb conversion as i am interested in putting a rb25 in my 86 hatch and from the information that i have been given i have been informed that it is an easy conversion..

so any information and pics would be greatly appreciated.
[a href=\'mailto:baby_s8n@yahoo.com.au\']baby_s8n@yahoo.com.au[/a]

thanx guys
Title: RB20det
Post by: wal33d on 06:31:10 PM / 02-Sep-04
im interseted in the pics and knowing how u goin..? Five_waleed83@yahoo.com
Rbs r good on kw but if u ganna go 4 one, just go all the way to RB26 and change it from Twin turbo to a single Big turbo something big like my mate is puting in his rb26 a T66,7 something close to that...but then u got few problems with the diff converion and the tail shaft...?
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 01:42:21 PM / 05-Sep-04
pics are on their way
been flat out with work and college
as soon as i get online from my own comp i will post them up
i do apoligise for the delay
Title: RB20det
Post by: S12 Night Ryder on 04:23:58 PM / 15-Jun-05
ooo i cant wait to see this! Email me pics at [a href=\'mailto:Hobogpo102@hotmail.com\']Hobogpo102@hotmail.com[/a]
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 03:27:12 AM / 19-Jun-05
if you look at the link above the pic you can view a vid of it running, has been running and registered for the 9months
Title: RB20det
Post by: driftdreams on 06:08:59 AM / 19-Jun-05
cool go beat the shit out of it then video tape it anmd host it on here
Title: RB20det
Post by: 200SXXEnotchbck86 on 10:59:55 AM / 19-Jun-05
Didn\'t see the vid.  Must have been fun getting that rad in.
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 05:12:24 AM / 28-Jun-05
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
[url]http://members.optusnet.com.au/spikebone/s12/DSCF0181.AVI[/a]
Title: RB20det
Post by: demonic s12 on 04:06:44 PM / 03-Sep-05
that was the coolest thing ive ever seen... i was just thinking last night how fun it would be to have a truly original swap...
well at least it can be rare in cali! :)
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 09:05:59 AM / 26-Sep-05
when i registered the car in qld australia it was the first one on the registry
Title: RB20det
Post by: pukkaSILVIA on 10:12:44 AM / 26-Sep-05
.looks good
Title: RB20det
Post by: s12ownerjdm on 09:11:33 PM / 16-Oct-05
I sent you a private message... I would love to see pics of that JIC suspension in there... [a href=\'mailto:jamesrwusnae@msn.com\']jamesrwusnae@msn.com[/a]
Title: RB20det
Post by: erik_200sxdrift on 02:31:59 AM / 17-Oct-05
wow props dude
how much did the swap cost you?
Title: RB20det
Post by: Paul on 01:08:48 PM / 18-Oct-05
Quote
to \\\"drift\\\" all 4 tires have to be sliding. Anything else is a power slide.

You basically want to understeer to keep the front end of the car pointing towards the exit of the turn through the entire movement.

Remember, the whole \\\"idea\\\" of drifting is to be able to slide a corner at a faster rate than you could apex the turn. If you come into a turn, slow down to take it, then just light up the tires under power on the exit - this is not a drift. To take a corner faster than the car can apex, you have to slide the front. With the front tires gripping, you\'re taking the wrong approach. Doing it this way, you have a pivot point. Applying power will make you rotate on that point - ie oversteer. This is where moderation comes into play. If you have severe understeer, the car will plow straight, which is bad. Moderate understeer, the car will half turn, then start to slip. You then use oversteer to keep the back end pushing you in the direction you want to go. When the understeer goes away, if you\'ve done everything right, the car will end up pointing towards the exit, and you power out. If you\'re trying to do it by just jerking the wheel to keep the front end where you want it, you\'ll invite counter rotation. Basically if you keep pushing the car in this state, you\'ll oversteer into a complete 360. You have to keep the momentum, or inertia in a constant arc. By going back and forth to correct, you\'re unloading and loading opposite tires on the back end.  

When I say \\\"understeer first, then power\\\" I don\'t mean it\'s a 2 step process. You don\'t get the car to plow, then apply power. It\'s a smooth transition.

You angle the car properly coming in on the approach. As it starts to understeer and the front end loses its grip, you have to steer with the throttle.  

It\'s hard to explain in words. Play with a Hot Wheels car, you might get an idea there.


exactly why the V6 S12 is a good car to learn with, learn to control the understeer.
Title: RB20det
Post by: ferret on 08:15:50 AM / 19-Oct-05
No offence, but have you guys got any idea what you\'re talking about here? The last thing that you want to take out drifting is a nose heavy, understeering dog of a car. If that was the case my Cima would be the ultimate drift car and I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. Next thing someones going to say that lots of body roll makes your car handle better and you need o restrict the flow of air through an engine otherwise it won\'t make power. Please, do us all a favour and do some research on handling and suspension before you post any more dribble like this .
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 05:20:23 PM / 26-Oct-05
hey looser, no one said they were understeering dogs, just said that a lil more weight in the front makes a good drift car, a cima is a heavy boat all over that is why its a dog, driving a car with a lil front bias is great for drift, have you ever driven an s13 with an rb, if no then i suggest you keep your mouth shut.
Title: RB20det
Post by: BullsEye on 06:46:07 AM / 30-Oct-05
nice swap
Title: RB20det
Post by: ferret on 02:41:30 AM / 31-Oct-05
More weight over the front axle = more front weight bias = more understeer. A car with more weight over the front  wheels is much less nimble, making it harder to change direction rapidly.

The aim of the game with weight distribution is to get it as close to 50/50 as possible as this gives the most neautral natural handling characteristics. When a car is nose heavy you need to compensate for this by fitting heavier front springs and larger swaybars, the stiffer the springs and the more weight that there is to control the harder it becomes for the shocks to do their job and control the springs making the tyres less likely to maintain contact with the road surface which = less front grip which = more understeer and turns your car into and understeering dog.

S13\'s understeer badly enough as it is without adding any more weight to the front end. And before you suggest that I drive anything else to compare your lead tipped arrow too, my garage is currently home to the Cima, my S12, and a Mazdaspeed Spec B MX5 with a whole host of aftermarket suspension under it. It has previously been home to a 180SX and a couple of Alfa\'s amoungst other things. My best friend currently owns an S13 SR20 drift car and an S15, and has previously owned an R32, RS Escort, ED XR8 etc. The S13 still understeers horribly despite having track spec Tien RA coilovers, whiteline adjustable swaybars etc.

I suggest that you either go back to school and take a maths and physics refresher or at the very least do some research before you go calling people loser.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I hope that the info contained in my little rant here can be of use to somebody.
Title: RB20det
Post by: ravenS13.5 on 12:05:25 PM / 31-Oct-05
I have been reading this thread for a while and would like to make a rather bold statement....both ideas are correct...to a point. Before anybody starts flaming me for my observations, let me first tell you that I have drifted my \'180sx\' 240sx with two different engine set-ups. The first was the stock ka24de setup plus turbo. I was having a few understeer issues, but could not afford to upgrade my suspension further (tein springs/tokico shocks) I learned to use the understeer to my advantage in the drift, which I believe the first gentleman was eluding to. I had to change my technique, but my drifts were much more breath-taking and oddly, more controlable. I recently switched to a vq30de mated with the rwd 350z\'s 6 speed tranny. This engine actually saved over 50lbs overall and placed the most weight farther back. I had to adjust the front suspension so the nose would\'nt stick up in the air. After driving the new set-up,...which is now much closer to 50/50, it took me along time to get used to it. But my technique changed , and I\'m doin alright again. So in my opinion, the only losers are the ones that flame others that have had good results with different set-ups. I\'ve seen people drift some crazy stuff. If you have to fight over which weight bias is better to drift or drive, then you are narrow minded, and don\'t give a crap about learning technique. Weight doesn\'t matter as much as the driver does.  :wink:
Title: RB20det
Post by: hillkill on 03:22:13 AM / 02-Dec-05
Good point. But Nice job on the RB swap. I\'m actually thinking about picking up a s13 and putting an RB in her just for drifting. Only because my s12 lacks rear suspension options. For my comment, drifting is about all about the Edge. Learning different styles of driving keeps me behind the wheel as much as I can. All you can hope for is to find your own style. But besides that Do what you need to do to Bust A Mad Drift.
Title: RB20det
Post by: AkiraS12 on 01:59:20 AM / 28-Dec-05
I\'d like to see someone drop and RB30-T in an S12. Probably only one of the Aussie guys here though, seeing as they\'re the only ones that got it (luck sonuva....). IMHO though... the RB20 is okay, but it\'s only a 2.0L. If you\'re going to go with a 2.0, go with an SR20, as it\'s lighter and there\'s more of a market out there for it. If you want to go for Skyline performance, go with an RB25, I\'ve seen many an RB25 powered 240 and they are certainly a sight to behold.
Title: RB20det
Post by: iB6uB9 on 09:12:56 AM / 22-Mar-06
Rb30 is aged and hard to find in good condition.
If you are going to build one you are better off building rb2530 but they are a very tall motor and would be difficult to get under the bonnet.

My reasoning for using the rb20 is because the car was intended to be a drifter and the rb20\'s seem to take more abuse than other nissan offerings.
Not here to start a battle just stating what i have found from my personal experience.
Title: Re: RB20det
Post by: newby200sx on 11:15:04 PM / 19-Mar-11
So what happened to this rb s12 was it finished? Need some info
Title: Re: RB20det
Post by: Draconis on 11:44:14 PM / 19-Mar-11
So what happened to this rb s12 was it finished? Need some info

You looking to do an RB swap?

My RB20DET swap: http://www.s12silvia.com/community/index.php?showtopic=2648
Dan's RB25DET swap: http://club-s12.org/v3/index.php?topic=13929.0
My RB26DETT Swap: http://www.s12silvia.com/community/index.php?showtopic=3442

And a write up for an RB swap into an S12: http://www.s12silvia.com/community/index.php?showtopic=5441