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Author Topic: Solid Axle Info Thread  (Read 21453 times)

Offline Julie

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« on: 03:43:40 AM / 14-May-08 »
This thread is old. An updated version of it can be found at the link below. This is being kept here for now until I get the time to consolidate and prune everything, make it much cleaner, and await some more data from DavidB.

http://club-s12.org/v3/index.php?topic=33508.0

-J

[/size]


since theres a lack of any real concrete information regarding the solid axle cars, ive decided to make a thread for it. hopefully others can help fill in the information i dont have and correct any mistakes i made

Basics:

the solid axle is found in the USDA 1984 CA20E cars, some candian built 85's, and some FJ equipped cars.  the suspension design utilizes a 4 link design similar to a 4x4 truck, with the sway bar mounted under the axle and attached to the lower links. the axle model is a H190 and features a open differential.

Specs:

Model: H190
Differential Size: 7.49 inches
Maximum Torque Capacity ~285 lb. ft.

Advantages:

* lack of camber adjustment means u can lower it and not have to worry about the wheels tipping in.
* easier to build then IRS type rear ends.
* excellent traction for drag or drift applications
* very strong and durable

Disadvantages:

* no camber adjustment, so youre stuck with the straight up rear wheels
* bumps cause handling issues while cornering
* no cheap/easy limited slip options
* no cheap way to do a 5 lug conversion as hubs are fused to the drive axles
* drum brakes, however there are conversion methods (more on that later)
* lacks a "Panhard Bar"

Tech Drawings:

Overview:



Removal Points:



Case & Axle Detail:



Exploded View:



Photos:

(coming soon, as im in the process of removing my own)

Upgrading:

Shocks:

Factory Ride Height:

* 1979-1993 Fox Body Ford Mustang ( +/- an inch of height)
  - Monroe Sensatrac
  - Gabriel
  - Kyb GR2

Performance/Lowering:

* 1982-1992 Chevy Camaro ( 1"-5" Lower depending on brand used)
  - KYB AGX
  - Tokico Illuminas

Typically, stock type camaro shocks will lower the car around 1.5" - 3" while a performance shock will lower it anywhere from 1" to 5"

Lowering the car past 2" with a hard spring will require short stroke shocks or a type of  retainer system to prevent spring from coming off perch


Springs:

* Ground Control can sell you any spring combination you'd like. Just order a 3"- 3 1/18" Spring diameter

- adapting to 2.5" springs: fabricating a retainer plate will be required if you wish        to run smaller diameter springs. Simply drill and tap spring seat to suit 1/2" bolt, drill into a plate, and you have a retainer. There is a pre existing hole which makes this process very easy. Use no smaller than 1/2" use fine thread if possible.

Sway Bars:

4-Links:

Techno Toy Tuning can build custom 4-links

- for long term drift/race cars, stock 4-links will need to be reinforced for strength, as they bend quite easy.

Limited Slip Differentials:
* Phantom Grip (not recommended)
* Nismo Produced a couple models, but theyre both rare and expensive

Brakes:
* S110 Rear Disk Conversion
* There might be other caliper/rotor combos that fit, so ill be researching that as well

Bushings:

Axle Swaps:

***this is based on speculation and theory and shouldnt be taken as fact***

if youre skilled with a welder (or know someone who is) any light type axle can be swapped into the car as long as it has a center mounted diff. remove the stock link mounts and smooth the metal, then weld in new mounts for the links, swap the perches from the old axle or fab up new ones,  narrow the axle tubes to the proper width, and weld up some brake mounts. advantages of an axle swap include access to a wider variety of disk brake options, more rear gear options,  and a limited slip type diff. however youll need to mod the drive axles on both sizes to accept the hubs of your choice

-toyota truck rear ends
-early rx7 axles
-ford 8.8 or 9" (heavy though)
-early pathfinder axles (some had lsds stock)
« Last Edit: 09:58:16 PM / 14-May-08 by julie »

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"like people, every car possesses a unique character, with its own DNA, talents, and idiosyncrasies. push it too hard and it'll turn on you, as a person would. if its worth anything, it gets more interesting the more you get to know it"

luck is earned through hard work and determination, not to mention the willingness to take risks and to see bad luck and setbacks as opportunities for growth and a new direction.

Offline TalkingGoats

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #1 on: 06:53:59 AM / 14-May-08 »
Julie, just copy and paste my info and then I will delete it.


Shocks: Sensatrac, Gabriel, Kyb GR2, etc...

1.5" - 3.0" Lowered - 3RD Gen Camaro 1982 - 1992, suits up to 350 lb per inch springs

Factory ride height +/- .5" - Fox body Mustangs- 1979 - 1993, Suits up to 300 lb per inch springs
------------------------
Performance shocks (AGX, Illuminas etc..)

1"- 5" lowered - 3rd gen camaro 1982 - 1992, 600lbs+

Factory ride height +/- 1" - Fox body mustangs 1979-1993 600lbs+

------------------------
Rear spring seat will take a 3" - 3 1/8" coil over spring safely.

2.5" Coil over springs can be used IF you make a spring retainer.

Simply drill and tap spring seat to suit 1/2" bolt, drill into a plate, and you have a retainer. There is a pre existing hole which makes this process very easy. Use no smaller than 1/2" use fine thread if possible.
-----------------------------------

Lowering more than 2" with stiff springs will require either short stroke shocks (3RD Gen Camaro is cheapest ($30 EA)), or a cable tie system to prevent spring from coming out.

-----------------------------------

For a long term drift, or race application gussets should be used to reinforce the four links. The are VERY weak and will bend.
« Last Edit: 06:59:13 AM / 14-May-08 by DeathAndMajesty »
I'd rather be a matchstick than a lighter.

Offline TalkingGoats

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #2 on: 07:05:23 AM / 14-May-08 »
All of my pony car suspension "Dos, and donts" were researched using forums and google to spy  on race setups.

I also found an AE86 guy that is running 300lb per inch springs on 13,000 mile camaro sensatracs and they are still not blown.

There is a fox mustang road race car that used 750lbs per inch front, 450lbs per inch rear on AGX for an entire season.

Both of these cars are SIGNIFICANTLY heavier than any S chassis.

I'd rather be a matchstick than a lighter.

Offline LonelyS12

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #3 on: 02:01:51 PM / 14-May-08 »
H190
7.49 inches
max. torque capacity ~285 lb. ft.

thats all i have off the top of my head, all my other info is at home.  i got that info from wikipedia, the source looks damn viable though. its in a book about all the different kinds of datsun diffs                 .   

also if you search you can find that a aussie shop makes a phantom grip taylored to the h190. I may go this route if they can produce one for me. i believe it was like $250? im sure aussies know what they are doing...
« Last Edit: 08:38:59 PM / 11-Jan-09 by 200sxkitcar »

i c u breakin' your neck     ;P

Offline LonelyS12

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #4 on: 03:06:02 PM / 14-May-08 »
Has anyone added a panhard bar or a watt's linkage of any sort to the s12's solid rear? i have been interested in doing this, do you guys think its not needed?

also i just thought about maybe having a air ride suspension on the rear. this cross anyones mind?
« Last Edit: 08:41:48 PM / 11-Jan-09 by 200sxkitcar »

i c u breakin' your neck     ;P

Offline mod_mastaz

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #5 on: 03:24:30 PM / 14-May-08 »
The advantages of it is that it DOES lack a panhard bar. Those are absolute crap. Besides, the s12 4-link setup has the 2 bars on the top, with the 45 degree angles which means you don't even need a panhard bar to control lateral movement.

As for going 5-lug, there's really no point since 4-lug rims are really nice and cheap in our sizes(under 16"). I kind of regret it, but it's too late now. If anything, get the 4lug to 5lug conversion spacers.

Oh as for using 3" to 3 1/8" spring spacers, would that be the OD of the spring perch? If so, you can use the Daymotorsports spring spacers that I have(IRS) and run a 5" spring. I'm sure it'll clear the chassis side, but remeasure to make sure. If not run some kind of adjustable sleeve that'll clear it.

Damn, Now I wish I had a solid axle notch with a KA in it haha.

Offline var1ant

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #6 on: 04:36:51 PM / 14-May-08 »
Quote from: mod_mastaz
The advantages of it is that it DOES lack a panhard bar. Those are absolute crap. Besides, the s12 4-link setup has the 2 bars on the top, with the 45 degree angles which means you don't even need a panhard bar to control lateral movement.




Echoing this, Pan hard bar equipped live axle setups have the problem of the axle moving to one side during suspension travel because of the bar being a static length. The s12 setup is pretty much as good as it gets with a live axle suspension design. The two upper arms being angled outwards from the center of the axle control lateral movement just fine.



Wikipedia for more fun reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_rod

 some panhards are designed as following...

« Last Edit: 08:54:46 PM / 11-Jan-09 by 200sxkitcar »

Offline seishuku

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #7 on: 04:49:16 PM / 14-May-08 »
Indeed. Just reinforce the link mounts and get stronger links, that would do nicely.

And I wouldn't call the H190 "strong" either, it's no stronger than an R180 and those break at around 260-300Tq. Well, the spider assembly will frag anyway, the ring gear is ok though... Like the R180, it needs more LSD.
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Offline Radracer_S

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #8 on: 05:56:08 PM / 14-May-08 »
*Sticky*

I posted this information in 2002 in the old forum before it was shut down and the data lost. Now remnants of that info are scattered here but its now coming together again thanks to julie's endeavor. Some of this I forgot since its been a long time since I fooled around with it. So here it goes.

My rear setup:

 )

Rear strut bar: custom aluminum fab

Rear sway bar: Addco (problems with setup, end links do not mount to frame as stated in diagram. More as it develops)

Bushings: Nismo polyurethane (for sway bar if it works)

rear brakes: s110 brembo drilled/ slotted disc rotors w/ z31/s12 calipers (currently investigating dual caliper setup. Why? Cuz I want it, bitch)

I hope this helps out in some way. I'll be back for more developments.

 

Here's an updated pic w/ T3 4-links.
« Last Edit: 08:43:47 PM / 11-Jan-09 by 200sxkitcar »


Power is Nuttin without control!!!!
1984 Nissan 200sx SR20DET GT2871R Silvia   
1994 Toyota 4x4 V6 ext cab  Daily driver
2001 Honda VLX 600 Shadow Customhttp://www.cardomain.com/ride/291681

Offline mod_mastaz

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #9 on: 07:03:15 PM / 14-May-08 »
Any ideas on using m30 or Z32 rear calipers? They both have use drum e-brakes while using a caliper for regular braking. The M30 has smaller brakes and 4-lug I believe. Maybe test out an M30 rotor and see if it works with the S12 drum brake. All that would be left would be using the m30 rear caliper if the e-brake works. If not S12 IRS/Z31 stuff would probably be nice too hehe.
« Last Edit: 07:03:45 PM / 14-May-08 by mod_mastaz »

Offline Radracer_S

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« Reply #10 on: 07:44:46 PM / 14-May-08 »
You will need custom mounts for them in which I had in mind. Nothing is impossible its just a matter of how much do u want to spend?
« Last Edit: 08:56:55 PM / 11-Jan-09 by 200sxkitcar »


Power is Nuttin without control!!!!
1984 Nissan 200sx SR20DET GT2871R Silvia   
1994 Toyota 4x4 V6 ext cab  Daily driver
2001 Honda VLX 600 Shadow Customhttp://www.cardomain.com/ride/291681

Offline brewster240

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #11 on: 01:16:37 AM / 15-May-08 »
what specs you need from m30?

i have mine apart right now, ill take pics and measurements if you like.

maybe a new thread for brake setups?

Offline Julie

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« Reply #12 on: 12:21:11 PM / 15-May-08 »
install 2 bolts in the holes of the calipers and measure from center to center, or from center to center of the holes themselves.


"like people, every car possesses a unique character, with its own DNA, talents, and idiosyncrasies. push it too hard and it'll turn on you, as a person would. if its worth anything, it gets more interesting the more you get to know it"

luck is earned through hard work and determination, not to mention the willingness to take risks and to see bad luck and setbacks as opportunities for growth and a new direction.

Offline TalkingGoats

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #13 on: 06:29:43 AM / 20-May-08 »
Best way to measure linear hole distance is from the top of one hole to the bottom of the other, its easier than guessing the center
I'd rather be a matchstick than a lighter.

Offline Sean1978

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« Reply #14 on: 10:14:04 AM / 22-May-08 »
Nismo H190 LSD Info (from Nissan)
Link Here
quality > quantity


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Offline Julie

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« Reply #15 on: 09:21:24 PM / 27-May-08 »
id say keep the dust shields. they protect from debris and rocks on the road and prevent crap from getting at your bearings


"like people, every car possesses a unique character, with its own DNA, talents, and idiosyncrasies. push it too hard and it'll turn on you, as a person would. if its worth anything, it gets more interesting the more you get to know it"

luck is earned through hard work and determination, not to mention the willingness to take risks and to see bad luck and setbacks as opportunities for growth and a new direction.

Offline Sean1978

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« Reply #16 on: 01:01:15 AM / 28-May-08 »
Anyone want to post some links or part numbers for the adjustable spring perches?
quality > quantity


Fail: because you are probably too stupid to come up with an actual post.
(noun)FTW: see above.

Offline LonelyS12

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« Reply #17 on: 01:44:56 AM / 28-May-08 »
hey radracer how did you mount your perches?  
« Last Edit: 08:45:16 PM / 11-Jan-09 by 200sxkitcar »

i c u breakin' your neck     ;P

Offline Radracer_S

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« Reply #18 on: 01:53:23 PM / 28-May-08 »
Simple. Drill/Cut a big hole and mount spring on it.


Power is Nuttin without control!!!!
1984 Nissan 200sx SR20DET GT2871R Silvia   
1994 Toyota 4x4 V6 ext cab  Daily driver
2001 Honda VLX 600 Shadow Customhttp://www.cardomain.com/ride/291681

Offline Lister

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Solid Axle Info Thread
« Reply #19 on: 06:04:43 PM / 22-Jun-08 »
LSD Option.Reider Racing These guys do an LSD Hemisphere for the Nissan Hard Body ( as you call it, we call them 720 and Navara), They will directly fit your 8 bolt crown wheel and pinion, Also reasonably priced at less than $500 usd the last time i asked........

Also as for a Rear Disc brake conversion, we were lucky here in Australia as we got a 910 series bluebird here with disc brakes on the rear, these were fitted to the factory h190 diff housing with very basic brackets and if your lucky you will be able to pick some up off any of the Aus bluebird forums.....

We also have a range of poly urethane bushes available for the rigid h190, these tend to negate the need for a panhard rod, i currently run an engine that produces more than 390nm / 286 ft/lb's of torque and it doesnt walk sideways at all under full load....Pinion is now fully out of whack and the diff screams under load but...no walking.
« Last Edit: 06:17:36 PM / 22-Jun-08 by Lister »

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