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Author Topic: Driven Daily s12 buildup  (Read 24689 times)

Offline drummingpariah

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #60 on: 07:44:18 PM / 21-Sep-11 »
Well, that didn't go according to plan. Couldn't get ahold of the new harness through my buddy, so I'm back to wiring. I'll post the details on Driven Daily in October, but I've essentially had to bypass a few relays and replace them with the switch panel I had lying around.

The current state of affairs:


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SchizophrenicMC: If it was mechanical, it'd have started running weeks ago
drummingpariah: if it were carbs, it would be mechanical

Offline VG33ERGazelle?

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #61 on: 08:16:02 PM / 21-Sep-11 »
you sir...have your work cut out for you.
Colin L. - First recorded case of a running, drivable VG33ER swapped S12
In Print, 2/6/2011 - Nico Club
Projects:
-'87 SE-V6, VG33ER Swapped
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What I lack in decorum, I make up for in absence of tact.
i has sweet coilovers and hoshinos, also my hood isnt pregnant with a supercharger baby.

Offline Prolowtone

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #62 on: 10:11:54 PM / 21-Sep-11 »
Holly shit dude. Thats a lot of work, Hope its going well
I keep my car cleaner then my room
Fuck you then, I'll take my movies, box of chocolates, bottle of wine and chloroform somewhere else.
Adding an SSD to that is kinda like strapping a 3 inch stainless HKS exhaust on a geo metro.

Offline drummingpariah

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #63 on: 10:45:32 AM / 22-Sep-11 »
It's been a TON of work, but now I'm on the home stretch. There's very nearly nothing left to do, other than finish bypassing the EFI relay and recover/reroute all the engine bay wiring, reattach the heat/hvac, rewire the reverse lights, and make a mount for the gauge cluster (probably not putting the dash back in, just the gauges).

P.S. The brake light switch sensors are a BITCH to plug in.
« Last Edit: 10:46:07 AM / 22-Sep-11 by drummingpariah »
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SchizophrenicMC: If it was mechanical, it'd have started running weeks ago
drummingpariah: if it were carbs, it would be mechanical

Offline drummingpariah

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #64 on: 03:11:51 PM / 12-Oct-11 »
Holly shit dude. Thats a lot of work, Hope its going well

It's going well now. See below.

you sir...have your work cut out for you.

Coming from you, that says quite a lot.

On to the driven daily build update! Reliability, safety, and power are all added in this episode!

First, a quick recap:
I bought the car in Virginia, drove it up to Boston overnight (12 hour drive) without most of the lights, no dash/gauges, a shifter that wasn't attached, and a very shaky, wobbly engine. After a couple days of driving around, smoke escaped from the engine bay and I couldn't drive around any longer. Skip forward a few weeks, and I realized that some relay had shorted and melted a half dozen wires. I pulled the body harness out of my Panda s12 (ca20e) and ... found that they aren't interchangeable at all. So with all my colorblindness, I rewired most of the harness again, and reinstalled it without the relay that had fried and melted and caused all this trouble. That took nearly two months, and I discovered several typos in the FSM (that were apparently already known, but I hadn't heard about them).

I'll be posting a more well-written update on my own website (Driven Daily, for those who are interested), now that the car is running again. I still have a LOT to sort out, but every day the list of things to do is burning down more and more. I just drained and flushed the radiator, and am happy to report that it's leak-free, and I've removed the air conditioning system entirely, the washer fluid spritzer, the radiator overflow, and a number of other worthless pieces of creature comforts that I'll never need.

My current goal is to get it legal and streetable before winter, which requires:
  • Rewire body wiring harness
  • Bypass relays and use switch panel
  • Secure switch panel
  • Secure steering column (it was missing 4 bolts total)
  • Replace the worn tires
  • Remove/repair broken exhaust hanger
  • Bleed the brakes
  • Install shifter that accepts a shift knob
  • Fill the coolant system
  • Remove air conditioning system
  • Change the oil
  • Regrease the tie rod with a broken boot, then mend the boot
  • Remove ground effects (made $500 on them!)
  • Bolt down the passenger seat
  • Attach seatbelts
  • Fix the horn (horns themselves work but not the wiring to/from the horn switch)
  • Rewire faulty reverse light (the problem is between the body harness connector and the light itself, which requires pulling the bumper)
  • Reassemble front driver's marker light
  • Combine 2 sets of headlights to make 1 set that works correctly and isn't rotted out
  • Remove dangerously-designed cruise control
  • Install speedometer cable
  • Install set of super-headlights
  • Replace frayed throttle cable
  • Secure all driveshaft retaining bolts (several are missing)
  • Pay off old, overdue ticket ($250, ouch!)
  • Wire or remove rear window wiper
  • Replace rear dampers
  • Find out why there's a screwdriver in the turbo
  • Diagnose stumbling idle (bad coil ground)
  • Write final version of the wiring diagram, and what's been removed/rerouted

Then I can start down the upgrade path, which seems to be growing every day:
  • Build front-end aerodynamic kit
  • Order cbr600rr rear suspension (x2)
  • Assemble cantilever mounts
  • Order t3 and 450cc injectors
  • Install t3 and 450cc injectors
  • Replace pop-off valve spring
  • Replace floppy steering wheel
  • Fabricate cupholder (it's the one creature comfort I really demand)
  • Replace seats
  • Install boost gauge
  • ka24de swap? (I've started putting together some real documentation in this document, but it's very incomplete and feedback/images are much appreciated)
  • Subaru lsd diff swap

... and because everyone loves photos...




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Quote
SchizophrenicMC: If it was mechanical, it'd have started running weeks ago
drummingpariah: if it were carbs, it would be mechanical

Offline Prolowtone

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #65 on: 06:04:34 PM / 12-Oct-11 »
Sweet. I should make a list like that to keep me on track :P Im all over the place now that i rebuilt the ca20 head for aircare
I keep my car cleaner then my room
Fuck you then, I'll take my movies, box of chocolates, bottle of wine and chloroform somewhere else.
Adding an SSD to that is kinda like strapping a 3 inch stainless HKS exhaust on a geo metro.

Offline drummingpariah

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #66 on: 03:25:22 PM / 15-Oct-11 »
Headlights are in. I'll take care of getting everything to the same color later, right now I'm purely focused on winter-proofing the whole vehicle. Lots of grinding and sandblasting to get rid of rust, then covering with self-etching/sealing primer, then a quick coat of clear to keep the rust from coming back right away.



I also took it for a few quick drives around my neighborhood and would consider it 'as safe as any other s12' (all the wiring is secured down, seat belts and seats are installed, and important components like the ECU and gauge cluster are either bolted or zip tied down. By the end of the weekend, I think I'll be ready to get it inspected (new tires, reverse light wiring, and a horn switch are still needed). Then I can call this thing a reliable daily driver (while I hunt down an inexpensive new engine [ka24de?] to swap in).
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Quote
SchizophrenicMC: If it was mechanical, it'd have started running weeks ago
drummingpariah: if it were carbs, it would be mechanical

Offline drummingpariah

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #67 on: 04:20:39 PM / 29-Oct-11 »
Spent some time shooting my buddy's AW11. He got me excited to finish my suspension up, and get this thing riding really nicely. The cantilever design is complete, and I'm ready to start prototyping final designs, and might even end up selling them as a kit afterward. There are almost no bolt-in rear suspension options for the s12 or the z31, and that's what prompts most owners to move on to move to a different chassis altogether. They do look kind of cool side-by-side though, don't they? I'll lower my s12 a couple inches once I have all the proper geometry measured out.


I have also been considering the old carb'd Ford 2.3 liter inline 4's, with my rack of Mikuni BST38ss carbs off my old GSXR750. They're GREAT carbs, and with a mediocre intake and exhaust setup, I should be able to hit an easy 150whp while having all the tuning options I could possibly want.

I'll have to write a bit about WHY I like carbs so much, since everybody I mention this to seems to think carbs are a massive step backward, in terms of power and efficiency. While EFI offers a higher ultimate threshold of tuning, carbs get me to the point where I have 90% of the same options at 1/10th of the price and complexity. Instead of having to buy a new ECU, extra o2 sensors, wiring in the knock sensor, new injectors, a new fuel pump, and several new gauges (around $2000 worth of gear)...

I get a rack of carbs ($100), a carb fuel pressure regulator (drops pressure down to 7-10psi for around $25), a vac gauge (already have one, but they're $25 for a mediocre one), a set of jets ($50 for main and idle jets, which are really all I need), and I'll spring for a wideband o2 sensor to save myself hours of time that I'd otherwise have to spend reading spark plugs.

But aside from that awesome level of control, if something goes wrong with an EFI system, I need to break out the manual, test light, and soldering iron. If something goes wrong with a rack of carbs, I can shake a stick at them menacingly and get them working again. I MAY need a can of carb cleaner and a cereal box, in a worst case scenario.

I added a sticker to it as well, which is normally something I'm completely opposed to, but couldn't resist the Darth Vader on my overly-80's-looking car.



So I suppose that's all for today. It's snowing like the sky has gone batshit insane, and we really hadn't expected it to start this early in the season, so there's wood splitting to do and plant-covering to take care of. 'till next time!
« Last Edit: 04:22:51 PM / 29-Oct-11 by drummingpariah »
Google+ me in your Cars circle,, come see my build thread then visit my website:

Quote
SchizophrenicMC: If it was mechanical, it'd have started running weeks ago
drummingpariah: if it were carbs, it would be mechanical

Offline Redneck

Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #68 on: 11:13:33 PM / 29-Oct-11 »
I have also been considering the old carb'd Ford 2.3 liter inline 4's, with my rack of Mikuni BST38ss carbs off my old GSXR750. They're GREAT carbs, and with a mediocre intake and exhaust setup, I should be able to hit an easy 150whp while having all the tuning options I could possibly want.

You should be able to easily hit 150 wheel hp with mediocre mods from an engine that (from what I briefly researched/found) only made 88 crank hp stock? So your basically tripling the wheel horsepower by adding some different carbs? I am kinda wondering how that works.

I'll have to write a bit about WHY I like carbs so much, since everybody I mention this to seems to think carbs are a massive step backward, in terms of power and efficiency. While EFI offers a higher ultimate threshold of tuning, carbs get me to the point where I have 90% of the same options at 1/10th of the price and complexity. Instead of having to buy a new ECU, extra o2 sensors, wiring in the knock sensor, new injectors, a new fuel pump, and several new gauges (around $2000 worth of gear)...

$1,000 is a more realistic number for aftermarket fuel management including Nistune, Megasquirt, etc if you know how to shop. If your worried about reliability the ca18et is about the last motor I'd want to have in my engine bay. The least reliable engine I have ever owned is that sad excuse of a powerplant (the efi system never had any problems though haha). The pro-carb/anti-fi guys always try and make it sound like efi systems routinely have reliability issues when in reality it is generally the exact opposite. In my 12 years of owning various fuel injected cars I have never had one fuel injection related issue. There really is no good excuse now that it is 2011 to downgrade to carbs. If it was the mid 80's I might understand falling back on carbs as fuel injection was still relatively new and unproven. But again its not the mid 80's, its 2011.
FIrst my rims are horrible, than there ok when painted black , now my cars horrible, now my fenders are to much after i was told i couldnt do it.... Lol club s12 ftw.....  Only here have Ive been told they look like shit..... SOrry its not bone stock with crown vic rims running the stock vg making 130whp and looks generic like every other one. My car looks dope ive been told this a billion times on local forums....


Offline drummingpariah

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #69 on: 12:05:22 AM / 30-Oct-11 »
You should be able to easily hit 150 wheel hp with mediocre mods from an engine that (from what I briefly researched/found) only made 88 crank hp stock? So your basically tripling the wheel horsepower by adding some different carbs? I am kinda wondering how that works.

And a cam regrind, I forgot to mention that. And yes, that's accurate based on an old book one of my friends has, and a couple ministock class friends. It's a 2.3liter engine that was seriously undercarb'd and effectively suffocated engine from the factory. The head, while only a basic 8valve design, has well-designed ports and valve chambers. The ignition system is basic, but effective. Just a points distributor. If I need to tighten up ignition tuning, GM HEI modules plop right in without major modification.

So yes, they're extremely unimpressive out of the factory, and the worst example did put out 88chp. But on the flip side, there's also a reason that engine is so popular among ministock racers. If you're willing to spend a little time and thought on them, they're reasonably decent engines. Some of the crazier builds have verified dyno numbers in the 300's using 'stock components' naturally aspirated, using carbs.

I'm basing all these goals I'm setting on other engine builders. I don't have first-hand experience with any Ford 4cylinder engines, and am not making promises here. I said "should" for a reason.

$1,000 is a more realistic number for aftermarket fuel management including Nistune, Megasquirt, etc if you know how to shop. If your worried about reliability the ca18et is about the last motor I'd want to have in my engine bay. The least reliable engine I have ever owned is that sad excuse of a powerplant (the efi system never had any problems though haha). The pro-carb/anti-fi guys always try and make it sound like efi systems routinely have reliability issues when in reality it is generally the exact opposite. In my 12 years of owning various fuel injected cars I have never had one fuel injection related issue. There really is no good excuse now that it is 2011 to downgrade to carbs. If it was the mid 80's I might understand falling back on carbs as fuel injection was still relatively new and unproven. But again its not the mid 80's, its 2011.

I've built a few engines on MS1 and MS2, and misc costs really add up quickly, even while shopping carefully. If you're frugal though, $1k is realistic though, I agree. $2k is more realistic for the average person, though. I try not to assume everything will go according to plan and that I'll find all the parts I need at bargain bin prices. I also agree that the ca18et is a waste of engine bay space, especially as far as reliability is concerned. That's why I'm planning to put in anything else.

My issue with FI is that any number of wires can short out and fry the ECU. If the ECU shorts, it doesn't work any more. If it doesn't work any more, the car doesn't run. It's really as simple as that. I've had wires short, and on some occasions those shorts lead back to the ECU and short a connection or even multiple connections inside the ECU. Sure it's uncommon, but I hope you aren't trying to say that it doesn't happen.

As far as the 80's go ... this is the 80's. It's 1986, and Nissan's ingenious engineers have come out with a new version of the 200sx s12. I'm dealing with 80's tech whether I like it or not. It's everywhere in the car. I would not take a car made in 2011 and convert it to carbs. I'm taking 80's tech that has been aging for 25 years now and replacing it with very well-established carbs from the 90's.

In any event, none of this is happening right now. I'm researching a few different options. I still like the ka24de idea, but the prospect of moving to fully mechanical fuel management is lucrative to me.
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SchizophrenicMC: If it was mechanical, it'd have started running weeks ago
drummingpariah: if it were carbs, it would be mechanical

Offline BattleFairy

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #70 on: 12:20:54 PM / 04-Nov-11 »
did you ever think about a L-series swap? nice power out of the box, cheap (in the staates), still a big aftermarket, 80´s engine :-D and strong as hell

fuck you even can get them in turbo/carb combo ;-)
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Now, I won't be a dick like Battlefairy was.......

Offline drummingpariah

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Re: Driven Daily s12 buildup
« Reply #71 on: 01:12:44 PM / 04-Nov-11 »
I've dealt with L-series engines altogether too much. I've had a few s30's with l24's, an l28e, and an l28et with a diesel crank, but there are a few major downsides. The biggest downside is that they're heavy (even heavier than the ford i4 oddly enough), have serious cooling issues, and are non-crossflow heads. I have yet to decide what I'm going with, and whatever I do will probably wait until spring anyway. Right now, I'm just focusing on getting it legalized. I apparently had a parking ticket that I didn't know about, which had suspended my registration and license 'privileges' so renewing my license and registration has suddenly blossomed into a $600 affair. On top of that, I need new tires to pass inspection, so I need to make some financial magic happen to sort things out. It's a bit stressful, to say the least.
Google+ me in your Cars circle,, come see my build thread then visit my website:

Quote
SchizophrenicMC: If it was mechanical, it'd have started running weeks ago
drummingpariah: if it were carbs, it would be mechanical