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Author Topic: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx  (Read 14921 times)

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #40 on: 02:50:57 PM / 01-Mar-16 »
New engine is at the shop as of Sat, I got the intake pulled off, going to have to work on a oval to round port adapter since I want to use the pathfinder intake and since the fuel rail is a return style it would solve that issue, and being a variable could get some nice low end along with decent high end, then also have the swirl valves to stabilize idle.... 

Offline iceageg

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #41 on: 06:15:11 PM / 01-Mar-16 »
Pathy intake doesnt fit under the hood. You probably know that but it is worth pointing out just in case you didnt know. Also, VG33 heads are a direct bolt on and the ports match the pathy intake. VG30 cams are taller so that could solve some of your issues if i understand them correctly.
I was afraid all the five gallon buckets of pain stacked four high were going to fall over

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #42 on: 02:03:38 PM / 02-Mar-16 »
Pathy intake doesnt fit under the hood. You probably know that but it is worth pointing out just in case you didnt know. Also, VG33 heads are a direct bolt on and the ports match the pathy intake. VG30 cams are taller so that could solve some of your issues if i understand them correctly.

I'm VQ not VG and way past the point of what fits "under the hood"

yea the 350z intake sits way high already, but I think the pathfinder is shorter then the 350z, haven't had a chance to set them side by side yet..... but still have to come up with a adapter to go from the oval port LIM to the round port heads....

Offline iceageg

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #43 on: 02:27:03 PM / 02-Mar-16 »
I'm VQ not VG and way past the point of what fits "under the hood"
Recto-cranial extraction performed (that was the popping sound you heard).  I know both of these things.  Forgot which build thread this was.  Pay no attention to the man behind the keyboard.

.... but still have to come up with a adapter to go from the oval port LIM to the round port heads....
How dramatic is the oval-to-round difference, which is larger and how much wiggle room do you have for the thickness of the adapter?  In the end ANYTHING that offers a slope/taper is going to be better than mating the flat surfaces together.
I was afraid all the five gallon buckets of pain stacked four high were going to fall over

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #44 on: 01:35:33 PM / 03-Mar-16 »

How dramatic is the oval-to-round difference, which is larger and how much wiggle room do you have for the thickness of the adapter?  In the end ANYTHING that offers a slope/taper is going to be better than mating the flat surfaces together.


well the bottom and injector port line up decent with enough on the LIM to grind away around the injector, it's the sides that are the issue, I haven't had a chance to take for sure measurements but want to say there is a good 1/4 in on both sides that need to be dealt with, with not enough material on the head to be ported to match with out going super thin. Not sure how I'm going to handle it yet, thinking about having it filled in with weld then port matching, or might just make some adapters, there is a chance that it will be done on a CNC with my friend, he has offered to scan parts and help me come up with what needs to be done then make parts on his CNC, but he is a busy man so will see if he fits that day project in. as far as thickness I'm thinking around  1/4 in should be a decent taper or might go thinner with the taper going up into the LIM. I'm busy with work for the next couple weeks so won't get on it for a bit yet and since the engine build is going to be on the tail end of the project I have a bunch of other stuff to deal with first, like getting the rest of the welding finished up on the front sub frame (which I might change up once I see how the pathfinder mounts fit) and tranny mounts and trailer hitch mounted, then foaming the frame and resealing where it needs it and such..... but will be chipping away at this issue as I go.

Offline iceageg

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #45 on: 02:35:02 PM / 03-Mar-16 »
. . . there is a good 1/4 in on both sides that need to be dealt with, with not enough material on the head to be ported to match. . .

. . . as far as thickness I'm thinking around  1/4 in should be a decent taper or might go thinner with the taper going up into the LIM. . .

If I understand this right you think you can put about 1/4" of material between the head and LIM and still have he ports line up properly?  If so your easiest bet is to just use some 1/4" plate and have round-to-oval ports machined into them.  Shouldn't be too difficult in any modern CAD program.  Another more complex option that would smooth out the airflow is to make sort of horn shaped tapered tabs that extend back into the round LIM runners.  Measuring and drawing those out would be more of a challenge.  It may be easier to partially fill those runners with weld and grind them back out to oval.  Either way it would be the most effective way of changing the shape while minimizing the turbulence inside the runner.  I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
I was afraid all the five gallon buckets of pain stacked four high were going to fall over

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #46 on: 03:44:11 PM / 03-Mar-16 »
If I understand this right you think you can put about 1/4" of material between the head and LIM and still have he ports line up properly?  If so your easiest bet is to just use some 1/4" plate and have round-to-oval ports machined into them.  Shouldn't be too difficult in any modern CAD program.  Another more complex option that would smooth out the airflow is to make sort of horn shaped tapered tabs that extend back into the round LIM runners.  Measuring and drawing those out would be more of a challenge.  It may be easier to partially fill those runners with weld and grind them back out to oval.  Either way it would be the most effective way of changing the shape while minimizing the turbulence inside the runner.  I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

I think you have the round and oval mixed up, the LIM is oval and the head is round, but yea something like that, I have to get everything set up (heads on block) so I can play around with it to see if the 1/4 plate is going to mess with the alignment to much and see if I want to deal with pushing the injectors back that far, one of the reasons I'm thinking about doing the tab idea since I can have it machined then grind the LIM to match the tabs on the sides and grind out around the injector to match the top side of the round port on the  head (lots of material there), but if I do end up just doing the plate and since the LIM just drops down parallel on the LIM studs it shouldn't be to much of a issue to get them to line up with a taper on the sides going into the head and with the port matching around the injector it would just be the sides. I do like the idea of the weld fill on the sides then port matching but need to talk to my welding guy and see what he thinks since that much fill would be a lot of heat to deal with and welding up into the ports might be more then he wants to deal with.


What I might do just to see is set up the heads on the block use something to space the LIM and tape off the ports and outside of the ports and pour some expanding foam (2 part stuff) so it makes the spacer with foam then 3d scan that clean it up in CAD and then throw it in the CNC, but since I don't want to move the injectors back to much I want to go for a thinner spacer that goes up into the LIM for the taper or welding, or even a little of both a spacer that welds on up into the LIM, although it would be nice to come up with something that would be sellable for other people that want to use a pathfinder intake on a VQ35 or a 350z intake on a VQ30 and other such mods that it would work with.....

Offline iceageg

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #47 on: 08:32:37 PM / 03-Mar-16 »
So smaller intake runners into larger ports in the head.  I will be watching this with great fascination to see how well it turns out.  Being a very short distance it may not make much difference but I have always stayed away from small to large volume ducts.  The loss of velocity is close to #1 on my list of things to avoid at almost any cost.  Then again, that short a distance and the fact that it is right at the back of the valve where flow will have to temporarily stop and wait for the valve to open again it may make little difference.  If you don't try it in both configurations you would never know anyway so maybe i am just rambling.  It sounds like you already have a good idea of your possibilities, limitations and what your resources are.  Cant wait to see more.
I was afraid all the five gallon buckets of pain stacked four high were going to fall over

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #48 on: 12:02:09 AM / 04-Mar-16 »
So smaller intake runners into larger ports in the head.  I will be watching this with great fascination to see how well it turns out.  Being a very short distance it may not make much difference but I have always stayed away from small to large volume ducts.  The loss of velocity is close to #1 on my list of things to avoid at almost any cost.  Then again, that short a distance and the fact that it is right at the back of the valve where flow will have to temporarily stop and wait for the valve to open again it may make little difference.  If you don't try it in both configurations you would never know anyway so maybe i am just rambling.  It sounds like you already have a good idea of your possibilities, limitations and what your resources are.  Cant wait to see more.

it's not so much as the volume that the change it's the shape, and that is were one of the issues lays. The oval ports are more closed around the injector not a super big deal since there is material there that can be taken away. they match up center bottom but not enough material going to the sides on the head ports. I could just use the 350z LIM but then that gets rid of the swirl valve which then might cause the issue you speak of at low rpm lack of velocity since the 350 LIM is long and decent size, more then likely going to be a 3.2L not  3.5L so lose of volume there also. Leaning towards the spacer but don't want to make it push the injector back to far.

Offline iceageg

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #49 on: 07:46:53 AM / 04-Mar-16 »
Ouch.  So with the round ports and oval runners having the same cross sectional volume you will be forced to both grind from some spots and add material to others in order to avoid a flow restriction.  Any sort of smoothed angles would help but I'm not sure how much in that short of a distance, particularly where the air temporarily stops to wait for the valve to open.  I have had a great deal of success in the past when maintaining volume while changing duct shape but it has always been over a much greater distance to avoid turbulence.  The airbox in this picture from one of my old posts is a good example.
http://club-s12.org/retro4/index.php?topic=33597.msg349240#msg349240

On the far side (where you can't see) a 3.5" round duct enters a tapered square cone that gradually flattens out into the rectangle at the top of the engine.  After crossing it squares back out into that complex angled box that acts as a funnel into the 3" supercharger inlet.  After dedicating a few days to measuring, cutting, bending, riveting, and starting over we came up with that design which at all points that funnel-to-box-to-funnel has the same volume as the duct at either end.  The flat box was required to fit under the upper cowling of the aircraft.  We did full power tests on the ground using smooth aluminum tubing and found no appreciable difference in velocity entering the supercharger or pressure exiting it.  Unorthodox but it was and continues to be highly effective.

Ideally you would test with both complete UIM/LIM combinations, then retest again with both of your hybrid options to tell what the difference is.  Testing like that is always time and cost prohibitive though even if you already have the sensors and testing equipment.  Not to mention really fucking lame compared to spending time driving.  You might also use the intake side head gaskets as templates to create two plates and the LIM-to-UIM gasket to create a third.  Then you could use tubing to link them together creating your own LIM.  It would be time consuming and costly (and you certainly have other items on your list to spend time on) but it would solve all of those issues.  Tricky issue anyway you go.  Still looking forward to all the updates between now and then whichever way you go.
I was afraid all the five gallon buckets of pain stacked four high were going to fall over

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #50 on: 01:15:59 PM / 04-Mar-16 »






so I think welding is going to be out since it will make a nasty little ramp, I should be able to make a spacer that has a better transition, it will be something I will be working on the side while getting the rest of the engine built and since I don't even have the new block tore down yet it will be a bit before this part is needed.......

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #51 on: 04:41:48 PM / 15-Mar-16 »
Well my month of nothing but work has come to a end, so should be getting back up to the shop a bit more again. Kevin did get some more racks, so now I have my own for my parts and they are not just in a pile on the floor which is nice......





Can't wait till the parts start going from the shelf to on the car for the last time



last add on, just need to weld some mounting plates in and hit the spare tire well with a hammer a couple times and then the foaming and parts painting starts then get to start putting it all back together
« Last Edit: 04:43:18 PM / 15-Mar-16 by vern_k »

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #52 on: 01:06:19 PM / 05-Apr-16 »
hehehehehe





well had to dig this out of my parts stash that I have been waiting to get to


looks like it will have to go into the spare tire well, or maybe in the engine bay haven't completely decided that yet.

she will have some scars from surgery


Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #53 on: 03:27:16 PM / 12-Apr-16 »
well can you find a better place to put it????



because daily

 

have to finish up the mounting plate, going to make it so that the two bolts that are in will have slots to slid in so that if I ever have to work on it, it will come out easy


Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #54 on: 06:49:18 PM / 19-Apr-16 »
spare/pump mount all done, the spare hold down bolts are not welded, i'm not sure how high I will have to make it to clear hoses and wiring for pump but think there will be room for a nice tool pack on top of the mount under the tire. All the holes drilled for foam filling



well if you don't mind if the pump is going to be loud mount it here....


always be mindful when grinding and such



judgment from the tool box



well it wasn't warm enough to get to foaming this weekend I hope it is next weekend so I can get the back end painted and put together


Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #55 on: 01:36:22 PM / 26-Apr-16 »
setting up for some quick mixing and pouring.


yep I drilled holes so the foam could get this far



so it will come out any place it can



I don't think I could have blocked that one if I tried



what you going to do while you wait for this to dry, maybe pet me?


Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #56 on: 11:19:49 PM / 02-May-16 »
hitch all bolted up




looks like the inspector has been by



since it was apart



makes things a lot easier for sure



cleaning some paint out



starting to get it together



time for a snack








all together



got this ready to start working on final mounting and such next week




hey can you move this so we can do box stuff



looks like I will only have to put about a 1/2 spacer in to make room for hoses and wiring


Offline iceageg

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #57 on: 06:45:26 AM / 03-May-16 »
A whole lot of awesome going on here.  And we haven't seen this much pussy in one thread since the lolcats one was still active!  Double win.
I was afraid all the five gallon buckets of pain stacked four high were going to fall over

Offline weitrhino

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #58 on: 09:51:05 AM / 03-May-16 »
Man this is nice work. I'm so jealous of your garage facility and skills

Offline vern_k

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Re: things I'm doing to my 86 200sx
« Reply #59 on: 01:48:00 PM / 10-May-16 »
didn't get a whole lot this weekend since I ended up working, on the bright side I will have more money for parts....

did start to get motor mounts finalized



tacked up, have some more bracing to put on the bottom side and box in the tops and such